Improve Camaro SS Handling Feel (Long Post)

[2quick]

Shock and struts are different for a v6 to a v8. The valving is set to a different weight of the cars. i would not recommend using a v8 shock on a v6 car. You could get unfavorable driving characteristics. Its better to get something specific for your application.

ssmike pm also sent to you.

Thanks!

[Doc]

There are some basics that need to be addressed to improve the Camaro's "track feel".

The first and minimum is to replace the rear cradle and differential bushings to get that rubbery response under control. If you did nothing else but change those you'd be amazed at how much better the car will feel. Even with the stock sway bars the difference is considerable.

Second is kind of tricky because there are 2 ways you can go. One is relatively inexpensive and kinda/sorta does the job by the brute force method which is to replace the factory sway bars with stiffer bars. It works for controlling body roll around a corner when going fast but it's not a "precision" solution. It does work however and definitely improves the car's performance over stock.

The other way to go is more expensive but is in fact a "precision" solution and will give you that race car finesse feel when steering and cornering; even at low speeds. And it gives you that even with the factory sway bars. The good news is you can do the precision solution which ultimately includes replacing the sway bars, by starting with the sway bars and gradually changing the other components needed to get the final result. So whether you do sway bars first or later that will still fit in the overall plan.

As we all know who own one, the Camaro is a heavy car. Beautiful, my favorite car I've ever owned in my life... but heavy. Weight is the enemy of response; the more weight, the slower and more sluggish the response. There are 2 kinds of weight on a car; sprung weight which is everything being held up and controlled by the springs, and unsprung weight which is not being held up by the springs. The body is sprung weight for example, and the wheels/tires/brakes are not.

The cornering/handling response is a direct result of wheels, tires, brakes, suspension geometry, springs and dampening (shocks). That delay and hesitation described in your original quotes from Car&Driver are the result of the massive weight of these components and the time it takes for the suspension to control them when conditions are changing, such as turning the wheel.

For example the factory wheel/tire weighs 62 lbs in the front; the brake rotor weighs 24 lbs. Now add the caliper, brake pads, steering arms, control arms, etc. and you've got over 100 lbs of weight hanging out there being violently yanked up and down and thrown from side to side with over a ton and a half of weight riding on it. The bushings and shocks are being asked to control all that smoothly, precisely and comfortably... yeah right. They actually do a pretty good job from the factory when you consider everything that has to be done and still give a comfortable ride. Is it race ready performance? No, but I'd say at least 95% of Camaro owners aren't going to race. The great thing about these cars though is the other 5% who do want to race can make changes and bring these cars up to awesome performance levels.

If you want to go beyond rear bushings and sway bar upgrades, take your time and understand what you want to do and make a plan because mods beyond those things begin to get expensive and you don't want to throw away your money or wind up screwing up your car to the point where it's not fun to be in and drive anymore.

Weight is the enemy of handling response so look at doing things to reduce weight, and in particular, unsprung weight. The very best weight to reduce is unsprung rotational weight such as wheels, tires, brake rotors because not only does removing that kind of weight make the suspension more responsive (less weight for the shocks and steering to control means faster and more precise response) it also improves acceleration, de-acceleration and braking.

It takes power to get weight moving. The more the weight, the more power and more time it takes to get it up to speed. And once it's moving, it takes time to change it's direction or slow it down. Two critical areas are wheels/tires and brake rotors. Those are bolt-on mod areas which though pricey, give you a great bang for your buck for what it does to handling and steering response. Depending on your budget, either replace the wheels/tires with lighter ones first if looks are a high priority, or, if you want to improve performance and spend less than a full set of lighter wheels/tires will cost, change the brake rotors.

I've seen a lot of guys that get drilled and slotted rotors because they think they "look cool" which is fine if you're basically just building a car for show, but if you're aiming for race track response and performance, there are other things to consider besides how they look. Number one, brake rotors are for slowing and/or stopping. If you just haphazardly drill holes in it "for cooling" and/or slot it without paying attention to the distance between the holes and whether or not you might actually be weakening it, you may actually wind up with less safety and performance than if you just left them stock. Not all slotted and drilled rotors are equal. Don't buy on the basis of price; brakes are so important for safety and performance that it's not the area to "save money" on.

Fortunately we Camaro owners have a first-class solution designed for us. They aren't cheap; a full set are about what most are paying for a catback exhaust system or name-brand headers. RacingBrake has a 2-piece rotor that is slotted and drilled in an ingenious way that improves weight and performance without compromising the safety or integrity of the rotor. Their rotors are just slightly less than 6 lbs lighter than the stock rotors. So a full set saves almost 24 lbs of unsprung rotational weight, and under hard braking they're going to run cooler; if I remember right it was about 25% cooler under hard braking conditions compared to stock rotors. This means significantly less chance of brake fade. My project thread has pics of them before and after I got them on my car:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...t=45165&page=2

If you do the brake rotors first and still have the stock wheels, you'll notice that the car will feel a bit "lighter" because the reduction of weight on each corner of the car improves it's ability to respond to road conditions and steering changes, plus it will respond a bit quicker when you're rolling and step on the gas, such as making a passing move on the freeway.

If you chose wheels/tires before brakes, or did them afterwards they're still a critical area for performance. It's an extremely subjective area too because of looks. Without going into the looks issue, again, weight is the enemy. If you're building a car mostly for looks and show, go bigger but you'll be adding weight. If you're building a car for performance and want race track feel and response, go lighter which can (and usually does) mean smaller than stock because the factory wheels are big. You'll also be spending money because lighter means forged rims which are not cheap. Again just like with rotors; not all forged rims are equal...ask questions and do your research before spending your money. And it's not just the rims; the tires have different weights depending on the size which adds to the weight of the rims so research tire weights from the tire manufacturers spec sheets too so you'll understand what each purchase does or doesn't do for your project build.

If you've looked at my project thread you'll see the wheel/tire combo I chose which is 19 x 9.5 rims and 275/40-19 tires. Ignoring style/color/brand the important thing is the width and weight. I chose the same width for all 4 so I can rotate my tires and extend the life of them but I also chose a width that is 1.5" wider in front and .5" wider in back than stock so I have a greater contact patch on the ground; especially in the front which affects steering and front-end cornering. I wanted to save weight compared to stock so I went down an inch to a 19" rim and went up in sidewall for the tires because sidewalls help to absorb road shock and improve the ride. The net result is even though they're wider than stock, they're 5 lbs lighter each than the stock fronts and 10 lbs lighter each than the stock rears. This is a total savings of 30 lbs of unsprung rotating weight for all 4. Combine that with the 24 lbs of savings from the brake rotors, and I've removed 54 lbs of unsprung rotating weight off the corners of my car with just these two mods alone. That's 54 lbs of weight the engine does NOT have to get moving; the brakes do NOT have to slow down; and the shocks do NOT have to try and dampen and control. Lift a 50 lb bag of cement and you'll appreciate just how much weight that is.

Am I going to win show awards? No. The guys that like the big wheels typically hate my car and say how they'd never be caught dead in a car with wheels like that, etc. and so on. But when I'm in motion they don't get to see them for very long anyways so it's not a big deal. When I'm behind the wheel I don't see them either but boy do I feel the difference in the car's performance. My car simply goes where I point it; without drama. Clean, precise, smooth. It's a joy to be in and drive. I haven't done engine mods yet (which I'm about to) but this car as-is goes when you mash the pedal. I can take a freeway on/off ramp at double the rated speed without any drama whatsoever. And that was before I upgraded the sway bars. The bushings, coilovers, wheels and brake rotors made that much of a difference just by themselves. I've since upgraded the sway bars and the car is almost scary now in what it can do. It FEELS like it's race track ready which is downright exciting to drive around in.

Make a plan; do your research on the components you want before you buy. Don't get swayed by "peer fever" and get something just because somebody else did and was saying how awesome it was, etc. Know what you want to do and what your goals are; if you don't have a goal then think about it and come up with one. Look for lighter and stronger; not just cheap. If it means you have to wait a month longer to get the mod you really want instead of settling for something cheaper that you can buy now, wait and get the part that's best. It pays in subtle ways as to how it "plays with others" by how it works with the rest of the components of your car.

A car is a system of many things; one thing affects other things. There isn't any one single thing that can turn it into your awesome dream car; it will be a combination of many things that you change over time. If you intelligently develop a plan and research things to fit your plan, then you won't waste money replacing things that were bought on impulse because you were impatient or hadn't done your research and didn't realize what the real results would be on YOUR car with everything you have done or want to do to it.

Do it right; you're modifying a legend.

[Mr. Wyndham]

The IRS does more to improve comfort and refinement than it does handling on a nicely-maintained track. Race the two cars over a pitted track, and that's where the IRS shines.

Nevertheless...there's some work to do on the SS 'feel'. It's not at all bad...but as it's been pointed out, others feel better. Hey...Ford's had well over 45 years to work with their SRA...and considering this is Chevy's first shot at an IRS Camaro, I'd say they did a good job!! Practice makes perfect, right?

....the 'FE4' SS suspension setup we reported about some time ago ought to help....


EDIT: Doc, nice writeup.

[BMR guy]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

This is what I was hoping for. I know the improved suspension parts will increase performance but I was hoping to capture the light on it's feet feel the Mustang has. I am a little leery of the lowering springs. Are these a vital component of the improved feel? Also, where does decreasing the unsprung weight fit into this? The Mustang may not be all that better off with the 19 inch wheels.

It will take a little more than swaybars to accompish the "light on it's feet" feel but swaybars will probably contribute the most out of what was discussed above. The car really benefits from the higher spring rates and lower CG (especially when combined with more roll resistance) however if lowering is not an option for you, other mods can really help combat the sluggish feel too.

Improving suspension reaction time by reducing unsprung mass is an easy (although expensive) solution to achieve better "response" out of your car. As Doc pointed out above, lightweight forged wheels, 2-piece rotors, and coil-overs all can lower the unsprung weight making it much easier for the strut to control the spring movements. This lets the suspension work much quicker making the car feel more controlled.

The 19" Mustang wheels/tires weigh about 6lbs. lighter each, and the brakes are just about the same weights (although lighter in the rear of the Mustang). The front struts and hubs are very similar in weight between the two cars however the Mustang has a huge 1-3/8" diameter hollow front sway bar vs. the .91" solid Camaro bar. While most of this size difference can be attributed to the Mustangs weight bias (54/46 Mustang vs. 52/48 Camaro), car-for-car the Mustang exhibits more roll resistance from the factory...

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The IRS does more to improve comfort and refinement than it does handling on a nicely-maintained track. Race the two cars over a pitted track, and that's where the IRS shines.

Nevertheless...there's some work to do on the SS 'feel'. It's not at all bad...but as it's been pointed out, others feel better. Hey...Ford's had well over 45 years to work with their SRA...and considering this is Chevy's first shot at an IRS Camaro, I'd say they did a good job!! Practice makes perfect, right?

I agree the Camaro feels pretty good to me and my last car was a BMW 335i. I do not think the difference is as much or the Camaro is quite as bad as Car and Driver makes out.

What I do not understand is why Car and Driver nor any other "test" that I have read makes mention of the power on side step out you feel when you get on the gas with the steering anywhere but straight ahead. I know bushings fix this, I felt this on my way home from buying the car. Maybe I should learn how to break in a car first.

But the dreaded Coyote did feel much more agile. I want both! But the Camaro won out for me and I am happy with it. Maybe I can find a totaled and rebuilt Mustang for a fun track car.

As a side note, the BMW M3 kills both cars in the Lightning Lap. So much for the Motor Trend 5.0/M3 comparison.

[BMR guy]

Originally Posted by blackbee

Brett

Are the ss shocks the same as v6 shocks or at least close enough to be able to control drop springs? I have Hotchkis and they work very well together, but haven't read anywhere where anyone for sure knows, only that they are close.if not would SS shocks control better on bad pavement where the car doesn't feel as controlled and you are running out of wheel travel to fast,or is it just the bad road?

While I believe the V6 and V8 shocks are physically interchangeable the valving is not appropriate for the front-to-rear weight differences between the V6 and V8 cars. This doesn't mean however that it wouldn't work as they are very close. Sounds like an experiment to me

[VR Baron]

Originally Posted by 2quick

Shock and struts are different for a v6 to a v8. The valving is set to a different weight of the cars. i would not recommend using a v8 shock on a v6 car. You could get unfavorable driving characteristics. Its better to get something specific for your application.

ssmike pm also sent to you.

Thanks!

If its just weight then how does 125 lbs or so dramatically effect the shock valving? Makes no sense and spring rates about 8% different or so according to gm? Srping mfg's are saying to close to care and all say the 220/440 lbs front/ rear spring range work o.k. with both v8 and v6 I just want to be sure. Maybe if a big difference in shock valving SS shocks would work better.Been through all this before on my 4th gen and all the great ride/control statements everyone claims but not really true in the real world of our increasingly bad roads.

Anyone with hard input on this please chime in. I think all with V6's would like to know

Thanks

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by BMR guy

It will take a little more than swaybars to accompish the "light on it's feet" feel but swaybars will probably contribute the most out of what was discussed above. The car really benefits from the higher spring rates and lower CG (especially when combined with more roll resistance) however if lowering is not an option for you, other mods can really help combat the sluggish feel too.

Improving suspension reaction time by reducing unsprung mass is an easy (although expensive) solution to achieve better "response" out of your car. As Doc pointed out above, lightweight forged wheels, 2-piece rotors, and coil-overs all can lower the unsprung weight making it much easier for the strut to control the spring movements. This lets the suspension work much quicker making the car feel more controlled.

The 19" Mustang wheels/tires weigh about 6lbs. lighter each, and the brakes are just about the same weights (although lighter in the rear of the Mustang). The front struts and hubs are very similar in weight between the two cars however the Mustang has a huge 1-3/8" diameter hollow front sway bar vs. the .91" solid Camaro bar. While most of this size difference can be attributed to the Mustangs weight bias (54/46 Mustang vs. 52/48 Camaro), car-for-car the Mustang exhibits more roll resistance from the factory...

Lowering is an option for me. I was worried about clearance for LTs and alignment issues. I think I will stay away from ground effects. They only slow the car down, although they look cool.

The Camaro has better weight distribution than the Mustang? Another advantage! And I think I made it even better with my amp and sub in the trunk. I wasn't thinking this was a performance add-on. Does anyone know if the ******** amp panel will stay in place at over 1G?

The front sway on the Camaro does not seem to be a big help to the Camaro. Is this because the Camaro is better balanced than the Mustang?

I am getting excited about tracking my SS. Anyone here track at Millville, NJ?

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Doc

There are some basics that need to be addressed to improve the Camaro's "track feel".

Do it right; you're modifying a legend.

Wow! You nailed what I am looking for. A Boss Camaro. While I like the idea of a new Z28 with FI or whatever it will be called, the weight of the car is moving in the wrong direction for me. If I go for more RWHP it will be a stroker. However, like you said the stock Camaro has nice power stock. I am thinking 500+ rwhp is too much of a handful at the track. Just like my 10 second scooter is too scary to ride at 10/10ths.

Thanks for this long post and great info! I will follow your build. Mind if I PM you some questions along the way?

[VR Baron]

Originally Posted by BMR guy

While I believe the V6 and V8 shocks are physically interchangeable the valving is not appropriate for the front-to-rear weight differences between the V6 and V8 cars. This doesn't mean however that it wouldn't work as they are very close. Sounds like an experiment to me

Sounds like I should stay with the v6 shocks. Are you then saying they are close enough for the stiffer spring rates also? That was my main concern for control and ride,

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Wow! You nailed what I am looking for. A Boss Camaro. While I like the idea of a new Z28 with FI or whatever it will be called, the weight of the car is moving in the wrong direction for me. If I go for more RWHP it will be a stroker. However, like you said the stock Camaro has nice power stock. I am thinking 500+ rwhp is too much of a handful at the track. Just like my 10 second scooter is too scary to ride at 10/10ths.

Thanks for this long post and great info! I will follow your build. Mind if I PM you some questions along the way?

Not at all; I'll be happy to answer questions or help out with any info I have.

I'm aiming for 450-460 rwhp for power and putting the rest of my money into reducing weight where reasonable and upgrading the suspension, drivetrain, brakes. I want a car that I CAN drive near 10/10ths if I want to on the track from time to time, but will be a pure joy to drive at 7 or 8/10ths which is mostly where I'll probably be. I'm not doing a 10/10ths build for similar reasons like you stated; I'm not out to prove anything to anybody and this isn't an extension of my self-esteem. I want my car to be fun, competent and one sweet ride.

[1977and2010]

Originally Posted by Doc

Not at all; I'll be happy to answer questions or help out with any info I have.

I'm aiming for 450-460 rwhp for power and putting the rest of my money into reducing weight where reasonable and upgrading the suspension, drivetrain, brakes. I want a car that I CAN drive near 10/10ths if I want to on the track from time to time, but will be a pure joy to drive at 7 or 8/10ths which is mostly where I'll probably be. I'm not doing a 10/10ths build for similar reasons like you stated; I'm not out to prove anything to anybody and this isn't an extension of my self-esteem. I want my car to be fun, competent and one sweet ride.

Well said that's exactly that's exactly where I'm heading. Hopefully.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by 1977and2010

Well said that's exactly that's exactly where I'm heading. Hopefully.

You can follow his build here:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45165

What is cool is that he is going to have his Camaro weight in Mustang territory. It's like adding power.

I wonder if the 1SS is lighter than the 2SS to start with.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Camaro SS in track action - Looking good.

First off let me state I drove and obsessed between the Mustang 5.0 and the Camaro SS and I am very happy with my choice. I am not going to bash my SS.

But in driving the two almost back to back it becomes apparent the Mustang feels like it handles better then the Camaro. But yet on the track (the kind with curves) they are very close as evidenced below.

Trying to achieve handling feel is not like the drags or dyno where you get hard numbers to back up your changes. It is all in the driving experience, the way driving the car makes you feel.

Car and Driver, the magazine many here now love to hate, does a cool thing every year with their Lightning Lap. They take the current crop of new cars back to the same track year after year so you can compare track times between different cars.

From this test we know the Brembo Mustang 5.0 is only slightly faster than the Camaro. One would assume the non-Brembo Mustang would not fare so well against the SS. Car and Driver also includes very concise summaries of each car that help explain how the drivers feel about the car they are hot-lappng.

The following two excerpts are from Car and Driver:





So there you have it. Even though both cars track (at least on this fast track) about the same, the Ford feels better.

My question here for either modded suspension Camaro owners familiar with both cars or the suspension upgrade craftsman is how do we get that crisp neutral feel the Brembo Mustang possesses in the Camaro. Or conversely how do we get rid of the ponderous barge feeling in the Camaro?

I know the Mustang enjoys a 225 pound weight advantage but that cannot be the whole answer. I suppose some of this answer may lie in suspension geometry and steering hardware that is expensive to alter. But how much of this is the suspension and how much is the SUV heavy wheels and tires?

The Camaro has two big advantages over the mustang, a more rigid chassis and IRS. Why the disparity? We know the Chevy guys spent a lot of time tuning the Camaro suspension. Are the Ford guys that much better?

I am looking at upgrading My Camaros suspension in the spring. I know the rear sway bar will help with the understeer.

But how do I achieve that crisp, light on it's feet, tossable feel in my Camaro and lose the ocean freighter effect?

I am intimately familiar with the Mustang and the Camaro. The 2011 Stick with Brembos turned a 1.38. and a 2011 Camaro SS AUTO turned a 1.41. The Camaro was good to good after five laps. We were able to get ONLY 1.5 hot laps out of the 2011 Mustang before the brakes were destroyed.



Having done complete suspension development on both vehicles, it is our opinion that the Camaro has a superior chassis. In our Hot Rod shootout the Mustang out accelerated and out braked the Camaro. Keep in mind this was a 4.6 Supercharged Saleen running against a ProCharged Camaro. The Camaro was faster in the corners and faster overall.



Theoretical Lap Times for both the Mustang and Camaro

We use our data logging software to cut and paste the best parts of every lap we ran for each car. This does two things. First, it is a measure of driver consistency. The closer the drivers Best Lap to the Theoretical Lap the more consistent the driver is. To be withing a second is good, under a second is better and under a half a second is beyond good. Second, this is a measure of the car and particularly the suspension. To be able to be consistent the car must be consistent. All a driver can ask of a car is to be stable and predictable. If the car delivers stability and predictability the driver knows what to do on every inch of the track. A really good car paired with a really good driver will deliver consistently good results. One is a measure of the other.

In the Camaro John was 3/10ths of a second slower in his Actual Lap Time compared to the Theoretical Best Lap Time.
In the Mustang John was 3/100ths of a second off in his Actual Lap Time compared to the Theoretical Best Lap Time.

This is another way of saying the same thing. Our DRIVER and our CARS were almost PERFECT.

John and the Mustang WERE perfect to be 3/100ths of a second apart in Actual vs. Theoretical Lap Times.





The data from the data logging equipment was fascinating.

Camaro Actual 1:33.62 Theoretical 1:33.10
Saleen Actual 1.33.89 Theoretical 1.33.87

Camaro and Saleen COMBINED THEORETICAL 1.32.78

Top Speed Camaro 110.26 Top Speed Saleen 112.74

Maximum Lateral G Camaro 1.4053 Saleen 1.2633

Maximum Power Output kW Camaro 219.13 Saleen 224.03

Maximum Torque Output Nm Camaro 794.23 Saleen 820.79

Braking Gs Camaro -1.2019 Saleen -1.2869

What we learned from the Supercar Shootout

Power: The Saleen makes better power in the heat than the LS3 Camaro. On the dyno the Mustang looked like a weak little sister. On the track the Mustang kicked sand in the face of the LS3. The results would be very different on a cooler day as the Camaro would run closer to the dyno RWHP.

Brakes: The Saleen six piston 15" front brakes equipped with Cobalt Friction XR1 pads front and XR2 pads rear were absolutely AWESOME. The harder we ran the better they performed. This is in stark contrast to the OE brakes on the GT. We'll take the Camaro SS front and rear Brembos all day long. The CTS-V brakes suffered from our pad selection. I choose Cobalt Friction XR1 pads front and XR3 pads rear. The XR3 compound was too mild creating brake bias issues and hurting the performance of the CTS-V brakes. With XR2 compound pads in the rear we believe the brakes would have been a dead heat with both in the EXCELLENT range.

IRS vs. Live Axle: This is a no brainer, no contest Camaro smack down. Even though the Mustang out braked and out accelerated the Camaro the Camaro beat the Mustang around Gingerman. We did everything we could to balance the Mustang with the three arms rear axle and limited suspension travel. We did achieve a ridiculous level of front to rear and cross weight balance. There was a price to be paid. The ride height setup limited the Saleen’s ability to put down power coming out of the corners. The next time out we will run with SOFTER rear coils that are taller leaving more room for the solid axle to work. That will improve the times on the Saleen.

Tires: We knew the Bridgestone RE-11s were good, yet they always surprise us with the amount of stick, grip and feel. Both the Saleen and the Camaro were equipped with Bridgestone RE-11 305/30/19 front and rear running on custom offset Frogeline ultra light weight racing wheels. They are incredibly consistent and we feel the best combination track street tire available in the market.

Summary: The Camaro won this event. 3/10s of a second on a 1.88 mile course is close. Over twenty laps it would add up to a substantial victory. That would have been the case on this test day IF the cars remained consistent. Every time we test or run on track we win because we learn. The setup on the Mustang will be different and faster. How am I certain, because we are already running it. The Camaro will have the brakes sorted and be faster as well. That means we plan to pass the Ford GT and the average time of the TOP TEN SCCA T1 cars that run at Gingerman in STREET CARS with STREET TIRES.