Ready or not: 36 MPG by 2015 mandate from Feds

[Scotsman]

Originally Posted by Mindz

The problem is oil companies spiked the price up for diesel. It just so happened that it was an acceptable substitute and companies were looking into it until the price jump. Now they are shying away and wanting to stick with conventional crude oil.....

Coincidence.....

No no no no no... you don't get it. It doesn't matter what diesel prices are (PEOPLE, PRICES ARE NEGLIGENT), carmakers will do WHATEVER IS NECESSARY ot make 35MPG CAFE, regardless of what the costs are to us from M.S.R.P. to gas or diesel. What is now Europe's automotive market will become our automotive market, their fleet average is sitting pretty at 50mpg or more and going up.

[NOODLESgoneWILD]

Those are ridicules numbers! I'll buy a new Camaro and NEVER buy another car again.

[TFord]

Originally Posted by NOODLESgoneWILD

Those are ridicules numbers! I'll buy a new Camaro and NEVER buy another car again.

+1 My kids are gonna be S O L

[Mindz]

Originally Posted by Scotsman

No no no no no... you don't get it. It doesn't matter what diesel prices are (PEOPLE, PRICES ARE NEGLIGENT), carmakers will do WHATEVER IS NECESSARY ot make 35MPG CAFE, regardless of what the costs are to us from M.S.R.P. to gas or diesel. What is now Europe's automotive market will become our automotive market, their fleet average is sitting pretty at 50mpg or more and going up.

If car makers change a majority of their products to diesel and no one buys them because they can't afford the price of gas which is LOWER THAN DIESEL, the automotive industry won't be making any money.

If diesel comes back down and is comparable to gasoline, while diesel cars get about the same mpg as hybrids, than I would be all for diesel. I'm just saying that some companies were debating about trying out diesel, but as soon as word spread about it, prices jumped.


I wasn't talking about the price of the car. I was talking about the price to power the car that might affect sales.

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by Scotsman

No no no no no... you don't get it. It doesn't matter what diesel prices are (PEOPLE, PRICES ARE NEGLIGENT), carmakers will do WHATEVER IS NECESSARY ot make 35MPG CAFE, regardless of what the costs are to us from M.S.R.P. to gas or diesel. What is now Europe's automotive market will become our automotive market, their fleet average is sitting pretty at 50mpg or more and going up.

Good fuel mileage doesn't count towards CAFE if people don't buy it. Diesels are just not cost effective given the current and future price of diesel. It will continue increasing in cost faster than gasoline because our diesel production capability is much more limited than Europe's. Also, our emissions requirements are much more strict that Europe's, further eroding fuel efficiency gains. It works in Europe because their diesel is cheaper then their gasoline and their diesel engines are more efficient than we can make ours due to emission regulations.

[Scotsman]

Originally Posted by Mindz

If car makers change a majority of their products to diesel and no one buys them because they can't afford the price of gas which is LOWER THAN DIESEL, the automotive industry won't be making any money.

How much lower is the cost of gas vs. diesel? It's not that big of a difference, especially for the time being. And over a significantly short period of time a diesel owner is paid back whatever increase he spend over a gas engine equivalent in dollars saved by not making more trips to the gas pump but seldom trips for more diesel. The fact that diesel burns learner than gasoline doesn't change, regardless of the outright costs. Don't forget that these engines last longer and require less maintenance than fas engines and the benefits far outweigh the costs.

If diesel comes back down and is comparable to gasoline, while diesel cars get about the same mpg as hybrids, than I would be all for diesel. I'm just saying that some companies were debating about trying out diesel, but as soon as word spread about it, prices jumped.

Since when do hybrids do as well as diesels fuel economy wise??? If that were the case then there'd be absolutely NO need to ponder pairing diesel with hybrid technology together as many carmakers are already experimenting with the concept.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't talking about the price of the car. I was talking about the price to power the car that might affect sales.

Once again, you missed the point. Regardless of increase in gas prices, diesel prices, the fact still stands you'll be spending more for a car tomorrow than today because CAFE doesn't cater to consumer tastes, it's a law, a standard. One that must be complied with or some of your favorite cars and carmakers will be eating it, big time.

Originally Posted by stovt001

Good fuel mileage doesn't count towards CAFE if people don't buy it. Diesels are just not cost effective given the current and future price of diesel. It will continue increasing in cost faster than gasoline because our diesel production capability is much more limited than Europe's. Also, our emissions requirements are much more strict that Europe's, further eroding fuel efficiency gains. It works in Europe because their diesel is cheaper then their gasoline and their diesel engines are more efficient than we can make ours due to emission regulations.

I like you stovt, but that's BS; CAFE stands whether or not you or I or anyone else buys diesel, hybrids, whatever. It's a law, not an option. You don't know what the future price of diesel is and who knows what improvements will be made in diesel production (how easily we forget about algae and trees, not to mention good ol' biodiesel). Emissions eroding diesel advantages?? Since when!!??? Audi's managed that and so have BMW, MB, Honda, Nissan, Ford, etc.


There are a lot of things I'll never understand about my own people, and the American aversion to diesel is definitely one of them.

[stovt001]

Originally Posted by Scotsman

I like you stovt, but that's BS; CAFE stands whether or not you or I or anyone else buys diesel, hybrids, whatever. It's a law, not an option. You don't know what the future price of diesel is and who knows what improvements will be made in diesel production (how easily we forget about algae and trees, not to mention good ol' biodiesel). Emissions eroding diesel advantages?? Since when!!??? Audi's managed that and so have BMW, MB, Honda, Nissan, Ford, etc.


There are a lot of things I'll never understand about my own people, and the American aversion to diesel is definitely one of them.

CAFE takes the fleet average of cars sold. So what I'm saying is, you could have a 100 mpg diesel and a 20 mpg gas powered car, and if all of your customers bought the gas powered car, it would be the only one counted for the manufacturer's fleet average. Right now the national average of diesel is well about $4, and the national average of gas is around $3.60. The reason for the cost difference is that demand for diesel is increasing, but we can't produce more. It takes a TON of effort and expense to convert an existing refinery (taking away gasoline capacity and raising those prices to boot), and we are definitely not going to see a new refinery any time soon, for much the same reason as you won't see another nuclear power facility soon. As far as diesel mileage, Edmunds is doing a long term test of a diesel Jetta, and they're just getting 38 mpg average, which is about what you'd see in a similarly sized and powered hybrid. A hybrid diesel is being considered because it combines the full-time efficiency benefits of diesel with the stop-and-go efficiency of hybrids to make a super-efficient combination. A hybrid-hybrid, if you will. Finally if you look at all those manufacturers you mentioned, few of them currently have diesels in the US. They intend to bring them here, but when they do they won't match the Euro-spec diesels because our emissions are stricter, making American-spec diesels less efficient, and our safety standards are higher, making our cars heavier. So if a Euro-spec diesel powered car gets 50 mpg, an American-spec car that is otherwise identical might only get 45 mpg.

[GMRULZ]

My Vette just got 33.8 at 60mph w/ the windows up and no a/c on the highway. So I think 36 is doable.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Given the state of our country, the value of our dollar, and the amount of income the average family gets...people can hardly afford gas today. What makes anybondy think they'll be able to afford a 4-6 grand premium on cars, that isn't going to do anything if gas keeps rising in cost, AND more expensive gas? It's insane to expect it!

We are not Europe. What works for them will not work for us, there's to completely different lifestyles. I don't see it happening.

Finally, diesel prices are more than a dollar more expensive than gas over here. Regardless of the fuel economy...people aren't going to be looking evry closely at cars that run on more expensive fuel......

[Dan]

Not to mention that I would happily pay more for gas before I would even think of buying a diesel. This isn't Europe, and thats a good thing.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Given the state of our country, the value of our dollar, and the amount of income the average family gets...people can hardly afford gas today. What makes anybondy think they'll be able to afford a 4-6 grand premium on cars, that isn't going to do anything if gas keeps rising in cost, AND more expensive gas? It's insane to expect it!

We are not Europe. What works for them will not work for us, there's to completely different lifestyles. I don't see it happening.

Finally, diesel prices are more than a dollar more expensive than gas over here. Regardless of the fuel economy...people aren't going to be looking evry closely at cars that run on more expensive fuel......

I'm not so sure. My brother recently bought his first ever foreign car, after buying a Chevelle, El Camino, 2 Firebirds, a Camaro, countless pickups, Daytona, and so on. It was a 15 year old diesel VW. Well actually 2, the second is for spare parts, they cost $500 for the pair. He bought them because it will cost less to fuel them than a similar gasoline car. Despite the higher price, the economy numbers more than offset that. Plus, you can make your own diesel fuel.

[2xtrbo]

My current car has a twin turbo straight six that develops 300 + HP stock and with a $500 chip develops 340 HP. With a $1300 "Procede" chip develops near 400 HP. It has always turned in sub 5 second numbers from the day I took it home.

My point is that the owner can tune the car and it probably then sucks in more gas. But from the factory, a turbo car offers good mileage in "detuned version".

I average 30 mpg on the highway. So I would say the solution is GM's old in line six with a few turbos attached. We had an inline six in our old GM truck and it would fly. Or even a V6 but I am not a fan of the V6 because it requires counterbalancing and is not a silky smooth as a inline engine. Add some hybrid to that and you are there. And simply sell the detuned version.

[radz28]

I think this is going to be near impossible for the automakers to achieve with the current demand customers expect, especially for trucks, IMHO. Smaller engines and lighter trucks seem like the way it's going to have to go. Personally, I could almost give a crap about emissions, because I don't subscribe to the theory that emissions are causing global warming and don't think they are related, so for me, the benefit is completely at the pump and for the wallet.

Get your V8s while you still can...

[balonywolf]

I'm hapy we're getting more fuel-efficient cars, but the costs are a little bogus. I'm in agreement that there needs to be more pressure on the oil companies to bring prices down, all the while exploring new energy sources.