The 2011+ Mustang Thread

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by Zeus

And how much is it if the SS is optioned out?

The 2SS curb weight is 3860 with m6. Comes with Brembos stock, comes with 20's stock. Comes with leather and power everything.
From what I have read the GT's weight of 3603 is base model. The weight of the GT premium in motor trend was 3620 with no glass roof. I think the glass roof adds another 25 lbs from what ive read.
3645 to 3860 both optioned.
1SS might be 3849 but thats only an educated guess because that is another weight I have seen quoted for the 2010 camaro. This would add up...a couple less motors (manual passenger seat and no heated mirrors) and no leather.
base to base it is 3849 to 3603

Base to base = 246 lb difference (both m6)

Both optioned out= 215 lb difference (both m6)

You would be more correct to just site a 200 lb difference if you are into rounding numbers

Also...the SS has a larger gas tank and curb weights are cited with a full tank. If it had the same amount of gas as the GT it would be a little closer lol

[Sax1031]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Even with the stupid-high CR? The LS7 has trouble with that 11:1....

The compression ratio will limit the car on pump gas that is for sure.

Whipple states they have a kit that will make 600hp @ 7 psi for the 5.0 on pump gas. I really want to see what Kenne Bell is going to offer.

And getting more wild than that will require changing some internals and at that point you can bring the CR down.

The LS3 still has a 10:7:1 ratio itself.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

The compression ratio will limit the car on pump gas that is for sure.

Whipple states they have a kit that will make 600hp @ 7 psi for the 5.0 on pump gas. I really want to see what Kenne Bell is going to offer.

And getting more wild than that will require changing some internals and at that point you can bring the CR down.

The LS3 still has a 10:7:1 ratio itself.

True...and I suppose the bigger problem with the LS7 is the cylinder walls, not the CR alone...

[fielderLS3]

I've heard that the LS7's cylinder walls are too thin to reliably withstand boost. That's why the LS9 was based on the LS3, and not the LS7. I guess that's the downside of boring a small block out to 428 cubic inches.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

The 2SS curb weight is 3860 with m6. Comes with Brembos stock, comes with 20's stock. Comes with leather and power everything.
From what I have read the GT's weight of 3603 is base model. The weight of the GT premium in motor trend was 3620 with no glass roof. I think the glass roof adds another 25 lbs from what ive read.
3645 to 3860 both optioned.


Really, I wasn't aware the Camaro offered the glass roof?



1SS might be 3849 but thats only an educated guess because that is another weight I have seen quoted for the 2010 camaro. This would add up...a couple less motors (manual passenger seat and no heated mirrors) and no leather.
base to base it is 3849 to 3603

Base to base = 246 lb difference (both m6)

Both optioned out= 215 lb difference (both m6)

I think you should compare 'like' options, otherwise, whats stopping you from calling a convertible an option?

[ULTRAZLS1]

Ok. You never specified. I was just including all information. Its not my fault loaded on the GT comes with a glass roof. I listed weights for both anyway...so im not sure what your getting at champ.

GT Premium 3620.

2SS 3860

240lbs.

Or how about base gt at 3603 and 1SS at 3849

246lbs. (Still wont work for your rounding up game)

I know it feels good to dog the camaro and lay down your "300lb weight advantage". But just know you are incorrect when you say so

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Ok. You never specified. I was just including all information. Its not my fault loaded on the GT comes with a glass roof. I listed weights for both anyway...so im not sure what your getting at champ.

GT Premium 3620.

2SS 3860

240lbs.

Or how about base gt at 3603 and 1SS at 3849

246lbs. (Still wont work for your rounding up game)

I know it feels good to dog the camaro and lay down your "300lb weight advantage". But just know you are incorrect when you say so

I'm not 'dogging' the Camaro, I'm pointing out the handicap which it will always be victim of.

[wbt]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

The compression ratio will limit the car on pump gas that is for sure.

Whipple states they have a kit that will make 600hp @ 7 psi for the 5.0 on pump gas. I really want to see what Kenne Bell is going to offer.

And getting more wild than that will require changing some internals and at that point you can bring the CR down.

The LS3 still has a 10:7:1 ratio itself.

Think there is argument on both sides for compression ratio. I will say the LS3 is good for 13 psi max on stock internals. More will start to bend rods.

I am not convinced the 5.0 will make up for it's limited N/A capability on the FI side. (In comparison to the 6.2) There are folks with the LS3 FI laying down 600WHP on pump gas. That = around 690HP at the crank. I feel that will only be achievable with race gas or meth on the 5.0. Time will tell.

[Sax1031]

Originally Posted by wbt

Think there is argument on both sides for compression ratio. I will say the LS3 is good for 13 psi max on stock internals. More will start to bend rods.

I am not convinced the 5.0 will make up for it's limited N/A capability on the FI side. (In comparison to the 6.2) There are folks with the LS3 FI laying down 600WHP on pump gas. That = around 690HP at the crank. I feel that will only be achievable with race gas or meth on the 5.0. Time will tell.

I agree the 6.2 mod for mod should make more power than the 5.0 because like it is said their is no replacement for displacement.

But I think we will need to wait and see when the GTs hit the street. The heads are supposed to be flat out amazing. Better than the GT500 heads. Depending on their efficiency they might can help the 5.0 handle a little bit more psi from a supercharger. Remember the compression ratio is not necessarily the enemy, it is detonation.

And another thing to remember is that while that Camaro hits that 600rwhp mark the stang would be able to dyno 575-580rwhp to keep the power to weight very close.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Fastest time is a 12.5.

Nascar motors are 220 psi and they are pushrod. Top fuel and funny cars use pushrod. The pushrod design is actually a newer design than ohc design.

Most all of the fastest cars in the world (6 seconds and below) use two valves per cylinder activated by pushrods from a centrally-placed camshaft.

We wont have to wait and see modded. It is who ever has the most money. If you are staying NA the advantage will be to the LS3. No way the 5.0 will make as much power as a 6.2 modded NA. Forced induction and or nitrous...may be the 5.0 from its strong internals.

Not a single one of your examples had anything to do with what I said. None of these cars are even remotely drivable on the street or could be considered reliable. Top fuel and funny cars use pushrod engines with massive positive displacement blowers and they are REQUIRED to be this way by NHRA rules. Nascar engines are also carbed, idle like shit because of the insane cam profiles and would never be suitable for daily driving. If they were allowed to run DOHC in Nascar and were only limited by displacement, you better believe they would be running direct injected DOHC v8's rather than the OHV carbed engines they use, because they could make more power that way. My point is, using more advanced designs like DOHC, especially with variable cam timing and lift, allows more extreme BMEP and VE to be possible while still maintaining street drivability. You can't say, "well the ls3 will do X at 200psi BMEP and the 5.0 will do X at 200psi BMEP" because it is going to be much more difficult to do so on the ls3. I'm not saying DOHC is a better design than OHV, I'm saying it's a tradeoff. The ls3 uses a less efficient design, but it has a big advantage in displacement. The whole BMEP thing is just a bad comparison.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Not a single one of your examples had anything to do with what I said. None of these cars are even remotely drivable on the street or could be considered reliable. Top fuel and funny cars use pushrod engines with massive positive displacement blowers and they are REQUIRED to be this way by NHRA rules. Nascar engines are also carbed, idle like shit because of the insane cam profiles and would never be suitable for daily driving. If they were allowed to run DOHC in Nascar and were only limited by displacement, you better believe they would be running direct injected DOHC v8's rather than the OHV carbed engines they use, because they could make more power that way. My point is, using more advanced designs like DOHC, especially with variable cam timing and lift, allows more extreme BMEP and VE to be possible while still maintaining street drivability. You can't say, "well the ls3 will do X at 200psi BMEP and the 5.0 will do X at 200psi BMEP" because it is going to be much more difficult to do so on the ls3. I'm not saying DOHC is a better design than OHV, I'm saying it's a tradeoff. The ls3 uses a less efficient design, but it has a big advantage in displacement. The whole BMEP thing is just a bad comparison.

So you are saying top fuel could be even faster if they went to OHC? Explain.
Id like to know how all those complex internal moving parts would work and hold up under 5000+ horsepower

What is the fastest time any ohc design has ever went in the 1/4? No car under any class has ever gone faster than pushrod (except for the rocket propelled cars of the 70's) Surely someone has pushed OHC to the limit.

educate me.

And Im not sure what you mean about driveability. 530rwhp (600hp) N/A LS3 cars built from nothing more than average joes with aftermarket parts (h/c/exhaust/full bolts ons/dyno tune) are perfectly driveable and reliable all day long and on pump gas at that. They do pretty good for a dinosaur. Id like to see you do that with a 4.6 or 5.0 OHC motor.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Here's why I like DOHC:
It's more flexible in adjustments (see VVT) and in general...is a more efficient design, allowing engineers to do more with less displacement.

Here's why I like OHV:
It sounds ridiculous with an exhaust (all the chains and valves externally-placed cams make DOHC sound "whiney")
And it's simple. Simple to build, simple to maintain, simple to modify.
Simple also means inexpensive.

Here's why I like BOTH:

They can both be adapted to a V8...and stuffed into a sporty coupe like the Camaro or Mustang.
Which...I have to assume...is why we're all here.

[fazm]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Here's why I like DOHC:
It's more flexible in adjustments (see VVT) and in general...is a more efficient design, allowing engineers to do more with less displacement.

Here's why I like OHV:
It sounds ridiculous with an exhaust (all the chains and valves externally-placed cams make DOHC sound "whiney")
And it's simple. Simple to build, simple to maintain, simple to modify.
Simple also means inexpensive.

Here's why I like BOTH:

They can both be adapted to a V8...and stuffed into a sporty coupe like the Camaro or Mustang.
Which...I have to assume...is why we're all here.

fixed for you

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

So you are saying top fuel could be even faster if they went to OHC? Explain.
Id like to know how all those complex internal moving parts would work and hold up under 5000+ horsepower

What is the fastest time any ohc design has ever went in the 1/4? No car under any class has ever gone faster than pushrod (except for the rocket propelled cars of the 70's) Surely someone has pushed OHC to the limit.

educate me.

And Im not sure what you mean about driveability. 530rwhp (600hp) N/A LS3 cars built from nothing more than average joes with aftermarket parts (h/c/exhaust/full bolts ons/dyno tune) are perfectly driveable and reliable all day long and on pump gas at that. They do pretty good for a dinosaur. Id like to see you do that with a 4.6 or 5.0 OHC motor.

Top fuel could be faster, easily. There are PLENTY of ways top fuel could be faster. The same ways F1 and NASCAR could be faster. They are at the level they're at to maintain competition and keep a certain level of safety. I never said DOHC had run faster times than any OHV design, you're getting ahead of yourself. You were talking about BMEP, so i commented on it. You will have a VERY hard time getting an ls3 to a BMEP of 220psi. If you do it, you will spend ungodly amounts of money. Even 200psi is going to be a WORKED ls3 with a big cam and some nice ass heads that will be in popular hot rodding mags because of the numbers it puts down. The BMEP comparison is bull shit when you're comparing the coyote 5.0 to the ls3 because an ls3 is going to need a lot of work to get to even stock 5.0 BMEP's , that is my point. Stop getting ahead of yourself, I'm talking about the BMEP comparison and telling you it's a worthless reference. I'm not telling you OHC is better in every way than OHV. I'm telling you it's more efficient, which it is, and comparing the ls3 at a given BMEP to the 5.0 at a given BMEP is bull shit because it will be extremely hard to get the ls3 to comparable BMEP. I'm not talking about overall performance or potential, I'm talking about BMEP because you brought it up and used it in a completely illogical comparison.

As for your question about how these complex moving parts would hold up under 5,000hp...top fuel runs at over 7,000hp and DOHC would hold up just as well as OHV; For about one race before having to be rebuilt... There is no real reason to use DOHC in top fuel because you are better off just increasing displacement when you aren't concerned about efficiency or reliability, like I said. Again, this really doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about because no form of racing be it F1, NASCAR, top fuel, or GT Cup focuses on what the production car market does. What should be of interest to you is the fact that the forms of racing that allow the most tech and limit displacement instead of specific types of designs, use mostly OHC designs, almost all using DOHC (bike, f1, f3, etc.).