Camaro VS Mustang Mega Thread

[Inferno2SS]

Originally Posted by NicksVSix

To me it was Camaro or nothing...if the 5th gen was never made I'd still be driving my Alero. No disrespect for Mustangs (or Challengers)....they're awesome cars. I just don't have any interest in owning one.

I feel the same way, I had pretty much given up on ever buying a new muscle car until the Camaro came out. It is pretty much everything I was looking for in a car.

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by assasinator

could you imagine a 5.8 liter tall deck, coyote based supercharged engine? just larger cubes would put the 5.8 liter coyote in 392 hemi power range.

ask and you shall receive

When the Ford Motor Company re-introduced the fabled 5.0L in 2010 with the new 2011 Mustang GT, the Ford faithful were practically beside themselves to get their hands on one. This wasn’t just a nostalgic return of the “5.0″ namesake, but the unveiling of an engine unlike any other in Ford’s history – one that just might top the original. Capable of producing the power to run in the tens naturally aspirated and structurally sound enough to handle copious amount of boost – this was horsepower nirvana for Mustang fans.

But for the extremists among us, how exactly do you improve upon an already stout piece of machinery? The good folks at Wiseco and K1 Technologies have an answer to that, and in doing so, they’ve brought the likewise well-revered “351″ name back to the Mustang.

link:http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/...er-351-coyote/

[oldlugs]

Originally Posted by snakekiller

ask and you shall receive

link:http://www.stangtv.com/tech-stories/...er-351-coyote/

Got wood!
It's a good time to be a muscle car fan, and I can't wait to hear that Coyote howlin' at 8K! Now, if Ford could only come up with another body style I like as much as the '05-'09 cars, make it a wee bit lighter, and throw in a durable, lightweight IRS....

[ZachSGMSS]

Got a couple quick questions for this thread. 1st 09 is the last year before ford updated the mustangs looks and engine correct? And 2nd I've got a friend that's been saying he wants to race me when he gets his car, he just got it yesterday and if I am right about my 1st question it is a 09 v6, And if thats the case then stock for stock I should have him no problem right?

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by 2011camaroexcited

Got a couple quick questions for this thread. 1st 09 is the last year before ford updated the mustangs looks and engine correct? And 2nd I've got a friend that's been saying he wants to race me when he gets his car, he just got it yesterday and if I am right about my 1st question it is a 09 v6, And if thats the case then stock for stock I should have him no problem right?

2010 was the body facelift, but they basically kept the old engines for that model year. 2011 was the year for the new engines.

An 09 V6 Mustang is the old 4.0L, 210 hp V6. Stock for stock, a new V6 Camaro will have no problem disposing of it unless you get a truly horrible launch.

[ZachSGMSS]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

2010 was the body facelift, but they basically kept the old engines for that model year. 2011 was the year for the new engines.

An 09 V6 Mustang is the old 4.0L, 210 hp V6. Stock for stock, a new V6 Camaro will have no problem disposing of it unless you get a truly horrible launch.

Thanks for that info. He's been givin me crap since I got my car and kept sayin how he's going to get a new 5.0 and race me and now that i found out he got an 09, or earlier?, v6 it made me laugh a little. I don't think he really even knows much about either of these cars but he's kind of one of those people that need to be put in their place from time to time so I really kind of hope he wants to take it to the track now and teach him a little something.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by BigDan

Maybe you can help out some of the SVTP members who think there's not going to be a 5.8L coyote especially since the PTWA aluminum block is only 2 years old.

SVTP: 2013 Shelby GT500 - Gets a TVS blown stroked 5.0 motor to 5.8.

Sorry for the late response bud, I was on a 10 day ban. It will be difficult to convince the SVT guys that this could happen, they absolutely love the 5.4 and they have good reason to. There are some owners though that just do not want to admit that there is something better than what they just bought. You will see a lot of this going on in certain forums... Believe it or not, some of my best info comes from some of the guys over there via PM. If the 5.8 is coming out, I have been hearing rumors that the heads won't be completely interchangeable with the 5.0's heads. I was hoping that they would be so the 5.0 guys could do 5.8 head swaps but it seems that the rod length and stroke might be an issue. I did some math on another site just for shits and giggles and I got a less than desirable rod/stroke ratio of 1.52:1. Here is the math, It gets kinda confusing but stick with it and you will see what I mean...

The issue was that a member was taking the 5.0's bore and using the 5.4's stroke and getting a 5.7. I informed him that the deck height would be used not the stroke and so it goes...

The Coyote 5.0 uses a 3.629 bore and the 5.4 uses a 4.165 stroke bringing the engine to a 344.64CI or a 5.6477 liter, the thing is, the Coyote long stroke will not use the 5.4 stroke (I will explain). It is rumored that the Coyote long stroke uses the 5.4's deck height which is 10.079 inches. The 5.0's deck height is 8.937 inches so that is over an inch higher (1.142 to be exact). The difference in stroke is 3.649 vs. 4.165 which is only a 0.516 inch difference. Just because the deck height is being used doesn’t mean the stroke will be the same, the 5.4's connecting rods (6.658 inches) could be used but seeing that the 5.0 and the 5.4 bottom end is somewhat different, you never know (We will explore rod length later). The actual stroke of the Coyote 5.8 will be between 4.241 to 4.253, which still gives Ford some room to play with. So, if the Coyote 5.8 used a 10.079 inch deck height and continued to use the 4.165 stroke, the piston would not reach top dead center, this is because the Coyote 5.0 is a compact engine that uses the 4.6's 5.933 connecting rod length. Simply adding a half an inch to the connecting rod wouldn't allow the piston to reach top dead center so a special connecting rod specific to the Coyote 5.8 would be needed.
It wouldn't be as simple as using the 5.4's connecting rods in the 5.0/5.8 because the bottom end is geometrically different between the two.

The deck heights are 1.142 inches apart (8.937 vs. 10.079) between the 5.0 and the 5.4 and the connecting rods are 0.725 inches different (5.933 vs. 6.658) leaving about 0.417 inches of play. The 5.4 has 3.421 inches between connecting rod and deck height, the 5.0 has 3.004 inches between rod and deck (more compact than the 5.4). Take the 0.417 inch difference between the rods and apply that to the 5.0 connecting rod, we would get a 6.35 inch connecting rod needed for the Coyote 5.8. Leaving 3.729 inches between rod and deck and again, this 5.8 would offer a shorter rod, more compact and more durable. Requiring the crankshaft's stroke to be 0.308 inches more than the 5.4's and 0.725 more than the 5.0. Since the Coyote 5.0 is the basis for the 5.8 engine, the stroke would be 4.374 and this is way too much. The rod would have to increase its length between 0.121 and 0.133 inches (we will use the 0.133 which was taken from the 5.8's maximum 4.253 stroke above) giving us a 6.483 inch connecting rod needed to reduce the 4.374 stroke down to the maximum 4.253 needed for a true 5.8 (rounded up). This is still almost a 1/4 inch shorter rod which is good for forced induction.

I know it looks like a bunch of crap and most of the math is theoretical but here is the run down...

Bore: 3.629
Stroke: 4.253
Rod: 6.483
Rod/Stroke ratio: 1.524:1 (kinda low, this could be a problem. We may end up using the 5.4's rods)
Deck Height: 10.079
Cubic Inch: 351.92
Liters: 5.767
Bore Spacing would continue to be 3.937 inches

However, the 5.8 could use a stoke much larger than the 4.253 although, it wouldn't be a 351 anymore. It would still be a 5.8 liter rounded up...

Biff, Bam, Boom... You and I just built an engine...

That tells me that the head chambers might be adjusted so that the 5.0 can be bored out a little to achieve the 5.8 liters and push that rod/stroke ratio up to 1.60:1. Everything about this engine is speculation, even it's existence... but the fact is that the 5.4 is becoming increasingly expensive now that it is only limited to one automobile.. so a replacement is in order and it is easier to retool the 5.0's heads with TiVCT than it is to do that to the 5.4. In my quick and dirty engine build here, we would have to use the 5.4's rods to pull the rod/stroke ratio up to 1.56:1 and that is still too low. I would like some RPMs out of this thing so we need a 1.60:1 at best. It is very possible that I fudged a number somewhere and the final figures are crap... Unless we use longer rods than what the 5.4 uses but we are seriously starting to diminish the piston wall depth and that is something I wouldn't want to live with either. I think the rule of thumb is never use a piston with less than a 1.25 inch wall. Can somebody shed some light on this?

Edit: I don't understand why people think that the PTWA Aluminum block is a brand new engine. Ford changed the casting and used aluminum instead of cast iron and the PTWA is a process not an engine part. That process can be applied to any existing engine and it will be when the cost comes down. The aluminum block was casted with additional support webbing to simulate the strength cast iron has, it was not taken back to the blueprint phase. Most people do not realize that the 5.4 is not used in Australia anymore because of Euro4 standards which makes the engine less profitable. It will always be available from the catalog just as the old 302,351 and the Cobra 4V but at this point, engineering TiVCT and Direct Injection for an engine that is only found in one vehicle that sells 5000 units a year is bad business... I also see your on that thread that mentions the Condor, I am looking into that right now on another site from someone who knows a great deal. He is a GM guy but he knows his Fords. See what you can dig up on a 5.8 Condor, he swears by listening to the Nurburgring 500 that it sounds like a full throttle Condor while that would be impressive, I still think it is Coyote based...

[GTAHVIT]

...

[InfernoOrangeSS]

Just asking an honest question of the members here. I will be getting a new car around Dec/Jan. I have decided either the new Mustang 5.0, or the Camaro SS. (No matter which, it will be a V8 and automatic.)
I would like some input on those who have test driven both and decided on the Camaro. What was it that "did it" for you? I have heard a lot about both, and the number one knock on the Camaro is that it has poor rear visibility.
What did you think of each interior? I had heard that Ford upgraded their interior and it was nicer, but I have as yet, not been able to test drive either. (I know on my '06 MustangGT, the interior is a lot of plastics.)

I am presently an owner of an '06 Mustang GT, but I am leaning heavily towards the Camaro SS, mainly because I think it looks so much nicer/better than the Mustang. Previous to owning my last two cars, both Mustangs, I was a Chevy guy, but I really liked Mustangs. The new Camaro has really turned my head.

So, if anyone has any input on both cars, I would be interested to hear it. I understand that this is a Camaro forum, and most will be slanted towards the Camaro. I was just asking for some more input before I start doing hands on research on both.
Many thanks!

[HookemHorns]

I like both so I would say drive them and choose the one that makes you excited.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

Originally Posted by HookemHorns

I like both so I would say drive them and choose the one that makes you excited.

Yeah, that's what I plan on doing. I mean that will make my ultimate decision. I was just looking for some input one way or the other to add to my research on both.

[TaylorRyanSS]

The visibility is fine if you adjust your mirrors correctly. I like the Mustang, but the Camaro has a sleeker look.

[armoredslayer]

I had Mustang Gt until this year when I traded for my SS. Have to say both cars are very nice cars but im having more fun in my camaro. I think both have there pros and cons but nothing major, boils down to what you really want more.

[TaylorRyanSS]

I forgot to mention, I owned an 05 Mustang before the Camaro as well. So I went in the same direction you should be going lol