will curb weight change your buying decision?

[garfin]

I guess my perspective on weight is based having owned my 98 SS since new - almost 10 years. To put it in a nutshell. if the 5th Gen car is gonna be faster, handle significantly better while offering better ride quality and get better fuel economy, then whatever the final weight is, (based on it being less than 4,000 lbs.) matters not to me...
Sure, the lighter the better, but just for fun, I did a little comparo about a year ago between a new Mazda RX8 and an '02 SS...

The 2007, 232 HP manual 1.3 litre Mazda RX8 weighs 3029 lb. EPA #'s are 16 city, 22 highway and 18 combined. Compare this to the EPA numbers for the last 2002 manual Z28 which were 17 city, 26 highway and 20 combined. Yup - I'm sure the Mazda is a more nimble, better handling car than an '02 SS - especially with that light little rotary engine contributing to a 50/50 weight distribution... but I sure know which car I'd rather have, based on it being more fun to drive and providing more performance, not to mention better fuel economy... and hey, isn't the 5th Gen car supposed to have pretty darned close to a 50/50 weight distribution?!?

A couple of people have mentioned that weight will not be a factor since they won't be taking the car onto a track. That's something that I've been doing with my '98 since the spring of '99 - and the weight of this 5th Gen, even if it approaches 4,000 lbs. will not be a factor for me. The 4th Gen is a pretty capable road course car and it surprises more than a few people during my track days. However, I feel that my Camaro is still a better car than I am a driver (but I'm getting pretty close!). From what I gather, the 5th Gen will be able to run circles around my 4th Gen on a road course - and I'm gonna have to start a new learning curve with respect to the 5th Gen's capabilities. Whether it weighs 3600 lbs. or 3900 lbs - it's gonna take me some time before I'm even gonna come close to making full use of this car's handling capabilities! Bottom line is that the new car will be a far better handling car than the 4th Gen and I'm gonna have to work at wringing everything out of it - regardless of what it weighs. Good enough for me!!

Also gotta keep in mind the fact that this is a Chevy and the goal is to market the car "at a Chevy price". A lot more mandatory equipment will be going into this car than what was required in the 3600 lb. 4th Gen. That equipment/technology adds weight. Inorder to achieve less weight, then more expensive materials would need to go into the car. At some point, there's gotta be a saw-off in order to keep the price of the car where most of us would like to see it and where sales can achieve 100,000 units/year.

One car that seems to pop up as a comparison is the 1-series BMW - specifically the 135i with the 300 HP twin turbo which could be a competitor in terms of price and performance. This car weighs about 3450 lbs, which seems ideal - on the surface... here is what one reviewer had to say about tradeoffs to keep the weight down:

Originally Posted by Canadian Driver

Much of that driving purity comes from the 1 Series' light weight and tight dimensions, which exact a price in terms of interior comfort and refinement. There's a fair bit more road, wind and engine noise than we've become used to in modern mainstream BMWs, but that's not really a bad thing: the twin-turbo six, in particular, sounds fantastic. What will be more of an issue to potential buyers is the small interior. The rear seats, for instance, are almost useless if the front-seat riders are any more than average size. Up front, whether the 1 Series feels intimate or just small will depend on how enthusiastic a driver you are. The centre console is tall and wide and the seats are set closely together, while the roof is cut down low; taller drivers would be wise to opt out of the sunroof. There are, however, still plenty of practical storage places in the cabin, while the trunk is well-shaped and easy to access, if not actually all that big.

Those are not compromises that I would be prepared to make in order to get the car down to that weight. One of the main reasons I'll be getting a Camaro instead of a 'Vette is that it has a reasonable back seat!

Best regardSS,

Elie

[TAG UR IT]

Yeah...I don't know how they did it. Maybe it's just the angle of the pictures or something. But, when I stood next to the silver, orange vert, and even BB, all three seemed to be larger than what we saw in the pix of the prepro sitting next to the avenger.

It's strange really. I know what you are saying Z284ever (and don't think it's changed) nor see how or why they would do that when they were actually talking about lengthening the wheelbase length (for larger tires). For some reason though, it looks smaller. Meh....maybe my eyes playin' tricks on me.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Z284ever

Actually Joe, when the production car dimensions are released, you'll see that's not the case.

I don't doubt it. I was just throwing it out there to try and prove my point that they do realize weight = bad. May have been a bad example.

I've heard something about shifting the greenhouse around, that would explain the "mind tricks" the prepro plays on us when we compare it to the Concept vehicles.....

[theholycow]

According to http://www.edmunds.com/used/1992/che...129/specs.html a 1992 Camaro had a curb weight of 3,220 pounds. According to http://www.edmunds.com/used/2002/che...303/specs.html a 2002 Camaro had a curb weight of 3500 pounds. I guess the 3750 pound figure mentioned a few times in this thread wouldn't be too bad, and is in line with the general weight gain trend.

It's funny, I used to prefer cars to be heavier, but these days I'm not so interested in mere heft.

Food for thought: My 1980 Buick LeSabre, at 217.6 inches long x 74.6 inches wide, has a listed curb weight of 3503 pounds.

[garfin]

Originally Posted by Z284ever

I've driven the 135 Elie, and I find it to be an incredible package. It's fast, it has great chassis dynamics, it's a ton of fun to drive. True, if you're going to get two fullsized guys comfortably up front, rear passenger room suffers.
Well.....so what.
It's no worse than a Camaro. And if increasing rear leg room on a Camaro adds several hundred pounds, that is just not a compromise I personally would be willing to make. Nope, not a chance.

If some of you guys are happy with a 4,000 lbs Camaro - more power to you. I wouldn't be, NOT IN THE LEAST BIT. And adding more power, won't make it turn better, won't make it transition better, won't make it brake better, won't make it get better fuel economy.

We ARE talking about a Camaro here, right folks? The fact that a fullsized G8 sedan weighs two tons, does not mean I'd want my 'ponycar' to do the same. Hell, it doesn't even mean I'd want my fullsized sedan to weigh that much.

Anyway, what's done is done. But if the Camaro comes in at two tons, expect a VERY short lifespan for it. New CAFE kicks in on MY '11.

I completely understand what you're saying, Charlie. Although I haven't (yet) taken a 135i out for a drive, I've seen 'em on the street and it sure looks like the people who are driving them can't seem to keep their foot out of it, so I have no doubt about your assessment as to its fun quotient!
... but if we can return to the back seat for a moment... as I've mentioned elsewhere, I was quite pleasantly surprised as to the roominess in the back of the 'vert concept - and if the production configuration is the same as the concept's, then it will cetainly end up being much more practical than the back seat of the 1-series.
I say, if you're gonna make a back seat, then at least make it useable rather than pretend it's anything other than an upholstered package shelf. Otherwise, it's probably better leaving it out completely.
Personally, I would make that compromise, based on my needs, but I can understand the reasoning of those who would rather not.
We all know it won't weigh 3450 lbs., so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the final number will be.

Best regardSS,

Elie

[Jay]

this thread it still going....lol..... get over the weight of the car guys.... if you have to shell out 40 grand for the V8 then complain..... which is not gunna happen.... so why complain!

I guess it is a public forum though.

[Camaro_crazy]

Originally Posted by Z284ever

Well, we'll see. Lots of rumors circulating about a sub-$30K, 3550 lbs, 400 hp, 2010 Mustang GT

That's just talk for now, and I will never buy a Mustang. It seems pretty concrete that the Camaro will be under 4000, and WILL have 400+, and thats not just talk.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by garfin

I say, if you're gonna make a back seat, then at least make it useable rather than pretend it's anything other than an upholstered package shelf. Otherwise, it's probably better leaving it out completely.

In defense of cars with useless back seats that are really just an upholstered parcel shelf, the reason they're included is for insurance classification. Without the back seat, it becomes a two seater, with the associated insurance penalty. I'd rather pay a couple hundred dollars more for the car and have a useless back seat that weighs 30 pounds that I can remove then pay hundreds of dollars of insurance cost every year.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Z284ever

Why, do you think that there won't be a version over $40K?

i think their will be a very high end V8 Camaro that will be over 40k.... yes. but for majority of the people that are going to buy the base V8 version and pay 30k or so..... why complain about it...... your getting a great car at 30k or so.... there is no reason to complain about the weight of the car considering you can almost bet 99% in certainty that it will be less than 3800 pounds.

But yes.... if you shell out over 40k for a Camaro and buy the high end v8 and all those performance goodies.... you should then demand the car be 3500 pounds or under.

Rest of the batch imo has no business complaining about the weight of the car for the price your going to pay for the car. thats all.

[Omega94]

Originally Posted by theholycow

In defense of cars with useless back seats that are really just an upholstered parcel shelf, the reason they're included is for insurance classification. Without the back seat, it becomes a two seater, with the associated insurance penalty. I'd rather pay a couple hundred dollars more for the car and have a useless back seat that weighs 30 pounds that I can remove then pay hundreds of dollars of insurance cost every year.

Hahaha...I didn't even say what you quoted me as saying Garfin said that

[2KZ28_For_Now]

Weight? No. It's gonna be within practical ranges. (3200-3600). Wait, and see. Good enough for me.

If I wanted a truly lightweight supercar, I'd buy a Z06 or ZR1 (after the lotto winnings were parsed by Uncle Sam, of course).

Besides, it's WAY TOO EASY to remove things from stock trim to reduce weight, if you want a track car. This has been done for decades, and won't end anytime soon.

[mprhead5]

Well since i started this thread I suppose I should come back to some of these counter points.

Yes all GM has said is that it will be under 4,000 Lbs. Didn't they say before around 3,700 at some point? My GUESS is 3,800 and some change. I remember riding in a LS2 gto and the weight of that car really hampered acceleration. Sure it still had that kick in the pants from the torque but The overall acceleration was hampered by its curb weight. My 96 z28 sure as hell didn't weigh 3,500 lbs and it had an iron block. I know all this safty stuff is pushing the vehicle weights up but if they made better choises about the components they used and the materials then it wouldn't bew this big of an issue. the constantly add weight to save costs and they end up with a pig heavy car. I would rather pay 3k more and have it built with better materials.

Jeremy Clarkson says it best. The C6 corvette is the only good american car made today and all things considered I would have to agree. Its the only one I would buy besides the camaro if it turns out nice and I need a back seat a few years from now. But I would more likly buy a BMW if I need a back seat since the driving dynamics are better.

in the end though it all comes down to steering feel and balance. If I can feel the front tires and hold a balance point the rest really dosn't matter. Thats why the miata is in car and drivers 10 best every year.

[Sterling]

I'm buying the Camaro regardless of the weight. I's such a beautiful car and will have enough power for me to enjoy. The weight isn't really a factor to me.

[theholycow]

Originally Posted by Omega94

Hahaha...I didn't even say what you quoted me as saying Garfin said that

Thank you. I fixed it. I must have multi-quoted then deleted most of it and accidentally left your attribution in place for his words...