Why RAM Air is a myth!!! Long Read (Wall of text)

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

Nobody said that the Vararam wouldn't make more power. It may. It's just the mis-application of the term ram air, that's contested.

Also, what do you mean "with the hood open" ? Not how you test these things.

We are all pretty clear that you got a prototype and drank the cool-aid. That's fine. Marketing works. Ever seen a Tornado? Sold millions. Never shown to work by anybody but the manufacturer & there dealers.

Your arguments would be more convincing with a better presentation too. Work on that typing and spelling. Your posts are very hard to read.

As for your remark of drinking the cool-aid the car you are saying this about is the same car that at k&N used for ther CAI too and if you got a better CAI i am willing to be the test car for that one to and let you know how it works too, I have no bone in this fight i am not in the car or car parts biz or any of the PR firms for car biz i am a land developer and home builder.

[Wacker]

The easiest explanation I can give is in the Vararam design itself. Do you notice a 90 degree bend in the Vararam? The answer is NO. So how does not having a 90 degree bend help Vararam? From the fluid dynamics discussion you can see that air accelerates in a converging nozzle. The acceleration of air equals lower pressure which is BAD. The exact same thing happens with a 90 degree bend. The air is forced to accelerate as it converges during the bend. The intakes you see that become wider/bigger after the bend try to get the lost pressure back by decelerating the air. What the Vararam, as well as New Era, does is give you an almost direct entry into the intake. That direct entry minimizes turbulence, decreases velocity, and provides for the coolest (most important) shot of air. The way I determine which CAI I am going to purchase is how easy the cold air is getting into the engine. Sure "Ram Air" is a marketing ploy, but you have to agree that concept not theory is what sales.

[axis]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS

Now that is funny as the dyno operators all tinke i was nuts till we did the last pull with the hood closed.

And like i said what is the AFM on all this units?
If you are running at WOT at 10 to 1 that is a lot of HP that you did not get if you got 11 to 1 that is a lot better but not good if you get 12+ to 1 at WOT you are getting there, So for all you out there find the CAI that gets you to 12.5 to1 or more, but not a lot more to get the most HP, And this is for a no tune unit as if you do a tune the tuner can get you there.

What difference does AFR make, concerning whether or not you're forcing air into your engine? The difference in AFR is coming from the colder air, NOT forced air. Do you think the stock tune is happy at 12:1? Does it not learn, to a point, and add more fuel to get it's AFR's back down to where it wants them? This is where the "tuner" gets their gains from, along with more timing.

Listen, it's all well and good that you are EXTREMELY happy with Vararams intake. I'm sure it will be very good and give good gains. I think i'm getting more turned off on them from listening to you trying to ram your results down peoples throats, then argueing a point that simply isn't true (RAM air creates a more postive intake charge). It makes everyone question your results. You've done your part in helping getting the word out about their CAI so leave it at that. The more you argue, the more you're going to turn people off about it.

[L454S]

It would be very easy to validate any Ram Air claim made. I am a pilot, we have manifold pressure guages on a lot of small plane engines. Install one on the LS3 and make a couple runs. One with a LMR or whatever, and one with a Vararam or whatever, and report the MANIFOLD pressure.

On my planes, your barometric pressure is your WOT manifold pressure. As you gain altitude you loose about an inch of pressure( and related power) per thousand feet.

If the ram air works you should see a gain over barometric pressure as speed gets to a certain point. I doubt you will reach that point in your Camaro.

[live2well]

Well the it seems that people either didnt read the original post or refuse to except the theory of Fluid Mechanics. In order for there to be any affect from "RAM AIR" your vehicle needs to be traveling at mach 0.3 at sea level. I know that most of the cars out here dont travel at that speed. So there will be NO "RAM AIR" effect. So does that mean "RAM AIR" doesnt exist? NO "RAM AIR" exist but not at the speeds that we are traveling at. Do scoops and such capture cooler air? Well that is up for debate.

"RAM AIR" in our street cars is a myth. "RAM AIR" as a concept is real. The math doesnt lie. PR and Sales people do. Unless someone can show "me" mathematically how my posted theory is incorrect I stand by my post.
Will I stay on "V" preorder list ? Yup Will I still buy their product if the price is reasonable ? YUP Why ? Because I like the way it looks and last.

[ryftz]

Originally Posted by live2well

"RAM AIR" in our street cars is a myth. "RAM AIR" as a concept is real. The math doesnt lie. PR and Sales people do. Unless someone can show "me" mathematically how my posted theory is incorrect I stand by my post.
Will I stay on "V" preorder list ? Yup Will I still buy their product if the price is reasonable ? YUP Why ? Because I like the way it looks and last.

Hey live2well, I read your whole post. and it all looks good to me. I've seen fluid dynamics (i'm a 5th year Mech Eng student), and you're right in its confusing, but everything you say is correct.

I don't really see a debate here, its all facts. As long as people recognize the difference between ram air as a theoretical application to a car (it is not an induction system) and as a valid method for access to cold air.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

If all you non belivers, Go back and read what they have said.

Testing- we are approaching our mileage goals without issue.

latest test data: (2010 SS Automatic)
DA= 2400-2600ft above sea level
dead idle launches in drive
all runs are hot laps, "NO COOLDOWN"
Using same G-tech etc..

0-60 = 4.67-4.71
1/4mile 13.07-13.12 @ 109.1-109.3mph

these would be strong 12 second runs@110-111mph in a decent Density Altitude. ( NO TUNING)

We are still working on several of the key components in the tail of the system that have Patents that are pending, so at this point we still cannot show pictures of the rear of the unit.

We know many other companies rushed intake kits out the door and have since thrown check engine lights and required a retune.

We are spending time data logging with EFI live to keep this diaeled out as we have continued to turn up the wick on the unit. Unlike most intake kits Vararam units are nothing but baby superchargers with efficencies well over 100% and as such we have more to deal with on the E38 computer than simple static dyno readings.
One testing example: a 0-60mph run
We have reached 105KPA in 1st gear alone! but the time to that KPA is reduced by 33%!
By the numbers we are seeing we are close to the max at this point.
Now we must reach our target milage without issue before switching to production tooling, we will not compromise this.

The next shots we release will be 99% the real thing.

And this from a member that reads all the posts.

105KPA ??
kPa = kilopascal

I went to online conversions.com
and 105KPA = 15.22 psi

That cant be right 15.22 psi , is online conversion off or what ?

Or

does your equipment also read the atmosphere psi (14.7.or 101.3 kilopascal) so yall are getting .5 psi gain ?

Just thinking out loud , thanks

And this is there reply yo the Q

People have asked about the 105 kilopascal readings .

These were taken using "THREE" different data logging systems.

1. We used EFI Live, for basic engine function and MAF scaling to correlate with long and short term fuel trim information etc..
This was piggie backed by a wideband sensor as well.

2. We also use a Motec data acquistion system plumbed into the manifold and in other "areas" of the car .

3.We piggie back both of these with an electronic Omega millibar guage that reads to a thousandth of a PSI !

We allways use a min of two sometimes three methods of data acquisition for testing of our systems in real world inviorments.
This helps to establish true and accurate readings during the devlopments process.


The 105 Kilo conversion is correct, but the on road "PEAK" PSI gain is slightly greater due to the loads in gears etc...VS stock as far as total PSI gained at peak.
.
(HP gained) This will vary greatly from stock to modified etc...( This will be abvious as to why when the kit is released)
The basics are whatever gain you get on the dyno stock (,without tuning) + the pressure generated under the curve at the base of the runner during the ram tunning cycle and what is gained at peak .5 is about +12 hp at the wheels in 1st gear from pressure alone on a car making 360hp to the rear wheels.

We look at all of this information to create a "TOTAL POWER CURVE" that maximizes acceleration on a 3850 pound vehicle, because 105 Kilo's is not our peak MAP! thats just where we stopped it ( "For Now" ) for the factory tune.
( Tuners are going to love what they can do with this system)

We are concentrating on the reduction of windup time in real world testing as well as overall drivability.

The efficency of this unit is far beyond any unit we have built for street use! (Our systems are allways over 100%)

The new Camaro unit has exceeded every goal we set for it to date ,now its just about readying the system for production
while continuing to run mileage on existing test mules.
We should have more pictures for you soon!!!!

So yes i believe in Vararam units but i read and remember what was said, And for all of the NEW Members with 1-20 posts try reading first and then tell me this.

I think i'm getting more turned off on them from listening to you trying to ram your results down peoples throats

[live2well]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS

If all you non belivers, Go back and read what they have said.



And this from a member that reads all the posts.



And this is there reply yo the Q



So yes i believe in Vararam units but i read and remember what was said, And for all of the NEW Members with 1-20 posts try reading first and then tell me this.

For the record 2SSRS, I dont disagree with you in the fact that you saw the gains that you saw. I also agree with you that VARARAM sells a great product. All I am saying is we as the auto community need to discourage the use of the term "RAM AIR" when it comes to talking about our cars or any vehicle that isnt capable of doing mach 0.3 at sea level because below mach 0.3 it doesnt exist.

Now that doesnt mean that there isnt some gain from the different Air intakes. It just isnt coming from "RAM AIR".

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

I gave you info to counter your point of no ram air at below mach 0.3, As the post said "The 105 Kilo conversion is correct, but the on road "PEAK" PSI gain is slightly greater due to the loads in gears etc...VS stock as far as total PSI gained at peak" that is ram air if you can get the car to run at mach 0.3 then the number will be more.

[live2well]

The calculations are correct except for that fact that The way for air velocity to be traded for an increase in static pressure is to actually SLOW IT
DOWN in a nozzle of some sort. This is easily the MOST counterintuitive part of fluid
mechanics for most people. The “common sense” mind says “In order to increase the
pressure of the intake, the velocity of the air needs to be increased, just as increasing the
speed of a fan exerts more force upon the hand.” Not only does this confuse dynamic with
static pressure, but is also misses the point, which is to trade the kinetic energy of the gas
for an increase in internal energy. How can this trade occur if the kinetic energy of the gas
is increased? It cannot, and in fact, the only way to trade it is to use the velocity of the gas
to compress itself – by slowing it down.
Below about Mach 0.3 (or about 1/3 the speed of sound, 228 MPH at sea level), air
is considered “incompressible”. That is, even if the correct nozzle is selected, and
the air is slowed down (the official term is “stagnated”) there will be zero trade.
No kinetic energy will be traded in as work capable of compressing the air. The
reasons for this are not discussed here; the reader may consult any reputable fluid
mechanics textbook for confirmation of this fact. In plain English, a car is just too
slow for ram air to work.

The formula used in your example leaves out a key variable. :-)

[toehead93]

Originally Posted by Wacker

The easiest explanation I can give is in the Vararam design itself. Do you notice a 90 degree bend in the Vararam? The answer is NO. So how does not having a 90 degree bend help Vararam? From the fluid dynamics discussion you can see that air accelerates in a converging nozzle. The acceleration of air equals lower pressure which is BAD. The exact same thing happens with a 90 degree bend. The air is forced to accelerate as it converges during the bend. The intakes you see that become wider/bigger after the bend try to get the lost pressure back by decelerating the air. What the Vararam, as well as New Era, does is give you an almost direct entry into the intake. That direct entry minimizes turbulence, decreases velocity, and provides for the coolest (most important) shot of air. The way I determine which CAI I am going to purchase is how easy the cold air is getting into the engine. Sure "Ram Air" is a marketing ploy, but you have to agree that concept not theory is what sales.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

But who ever started saying Varama is a ram air system, I don't think I've seen Vararam claim this. They have said they can raise the pressure inside the unit to a degree. And I did see a post on a Vette forum where a pressure gauge was mounted inside a unit and it increased the pressure slightly.

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS

I gave you info to counter your point of no ram air at below mach 0.3, As the post said "The 105 Kilo conversion is correct, but the on road "PEAK" PSI gain is slightly greater due to the loads in gears etc...VS stock as far as total PSI gained at peak" that is ram air if you can get the car to run at mach 0.3 then the number will be more.

I thnk this post from Ted applies;

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Hello Jim,

Looking at your accomplishments using the laws of fluid dynamic one could argue that all you did was get rid of the vacuum created at air box by the wind passing over the previous design opening.

I would argue that you did NOT raise Pressure above ATMOSPHERIC but brought it closer to atmopheric at the inlet of the carbs.

This can be proved with a 50 dollar pressure guage.

Taking the carb foatbowl vents from behind the engine where a vacuum was created from the air passing around the bike at 100 mph was nessasary due to your air box redesign.

Fuel is Not drawn through a main jet it is Pushed through by atmospheric pressure in the float bowl, the lack thereof is what caused the lean condition at 100 mph.

So You Did Not Create Ram Air, you just improved a poor design.

I too, designed and built the worlds quikest and fastest stock engine stock chassis Yamaha RX1 Snowmobile in 660 FT at 4.91 et 136 MPH with 1.11 60 ft. times at 726 lbs, if you do the math it would run 7.6 Quarter mile at over 165 mph.

I run against hand built drag race only ice dragsters that cost more than 45,000 dollars, that have 550+ hp.

I qualified 2nd with a 4.91 to a 4.86 1st with my 10,000 dollar modifications on a 10,000 dollar production sled with 350 hp.

Google, Jannetty Turbo RX1

Enough about me back to the discussion

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by toehead93

This makes a lot of sense to me.

But who ever started saying Varama is a ram air system, I don't think I've seen Vararam claim this. They have said they can raise the pressure inside the unit to a degree. And I did see a post on a Vette forum where a pressure gauge was mounted inside a unit and it increased the pressure slightly.

This OP was not about any one company, but about the terminology and claims made by using "ram air". Other posters turned it into a Vararam topic.

However since you asked, their website says "MAKERS OF THE MOST POWERFUL RAM AIR SYSTEMS ON THE PLANET, PERIOD"

[toehead93]

Ha, there goes my point...marketing at its best.