New lightning lap

[Synner]

I'm more impressed with the new vette than anything although I worry about heat soak and repeatability.

For pretty much any camaro vs mustang I've only ever seen a stock car in either brand if they've just gotten it. But apples to apples the best mod will be driver education. I can spank a vette but in reality it's spanking the driver in most cases. The worst was a Z06 when I was on factory tires. Benchtop number racing is all well and good but the loose nut is always the driver.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Punk_rider

I hear this tire thing over and over again when it comes to Mustang vs. 1LE...

I can buy the importance of tires for sure, but tires are probably the easiest thing to upgrade so why Ford didn't upgrade?

I wish I knew . . . but then again it seems that they've never picked from the top shelf.

Price spread wouldn't be huge... Maybe it's because tires are important but not that much.

It can easily be that much. The difference in average speed between a 3:05 lap around a 4.1 mile track and a 3:02 lap is barely 2 kph. Mostly meaning in cars with similar acceleration performance, the faster car need only be able to negotiate the corners 2 kph faster. The tires' and the suspension's part in making it easy for the driver to run out there at the limit also matters, and the GT/PP is not as composed as the 1LE (certainly not if you were listening to Randy Pobst's review of a year or so ago).

The "hardcore" side of the 1LE package is still a funny thing to me. I'm European and seriously, there's just nothing "hardcore" in the way the 1LE drive ... always makes me laugh when I see people wonder about making it a daily driver

Not all of us 'Mericans are like the stereotype picture you just painted, and I'm going to blame the monthly car magazines for much of the way it appears to those looking in here from outside. Hell, I think a Z/28 would make a pretty good daily driver in every respect except its high (OE) tire cost per km (and I've ridden in and very briefly driven one).


Norm

[Joseph1LE]

Originally Posted by motorhead

What is the 1/4 mile time between the 1LE and the new GT?

They are pretty equal in terms of ET, but the Mustang consistently puts down 1-3mph faster trap speeds depending on which tests you look at. Therefore the Mustang will usually have the edge.

[1 Long onE]

http://jalopnik.com/5930243/camaro-1...es-anyone-care

The 1le did it faster. Car and driver hit the rev limiter on one of the straights. Enjoy your bragging rights while it lasts!!

[X25]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I wish I knew . . . but then again it seems that they've never picked from the top shelf.



It can easily be that much. The difference in average speed between a 3:05 lap around a 4.1 mile track and a 3:02 lap is barely 2 kph. Mostly meaning in cars with similar acceleration performance, the faster car need only be able to negotiate the corners 2 kph faster. The tires' and the suspension's part in making it easy for the driver to run out there at the limit also matters, and the GT/PP is not as composed as the 1LE (certainly not if you were listening to Randy Pobst's review of a year or so ago).



Not all of us 'Mericans are like the stereotype picture you just painted, and I'm going to blame the monthly car magazines for much of the way it appears to those looking in here from outside. Hell, I think a Z/28 would make a pretty good daily driver in every respect except its high (OE) tire cost per km (and I've ridden in and very briefly driven one).


Norm

Norm, I understand your point, but I am also sure you know that high traction tires will also need a matching suspension set-up, down to the bushings, to perform in sync. Now, assuming we can change everything, we need to look at the chassis, which is usually cost-prohibitive to improve (and I hate additional under-body braces that scrape). Almost every magazine I read says the new chassis feels much stiffer. This gives me hope that they might improve it substantially during mid-term refreshes of this chassis.

Even then, I don't think the analogy to the improvements Gen5 Camaro saw with the ZL1/1LE makes sense. There were already Holden products in Australia, using the same platform, with much better handling than the 2010 Camaro. This leads me to think that the vast improvement in 2012+ is not due to a breakthrough or sorting out a chassis that just came out in 2010, but it's rather due to GM dropping the ball on the Camaro when it released Gen5 for the first time. I've actually never ever seen a car platform making such a come-back besides the Gen5 Camaro.

In short, I strongly believe that "if only it had better tires" or similar statements are misleading. Does S550 have more potential? I sure hope so, but it's hard to know for a fact at the moment.

Back to GT350R; looking forward to seeing the real tests and comparisons!

[Pushrod Pete]

speaking of the new chassis, the new SS is looking like it will crush the 1le's lightning lap with a 3,685 curb weight!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by X25

Norm, I understand your point, but I am also sure you know that high traction tires will also need a matching suspension set-up, down to the bushings, to perform in sync. Now, assuming we can change everything, we need to look at the chassis, which is usually cost-prohibitive to improve (and I hate additional under-body braces that scrape). Almost every magazine I read says the new chassis feels much stiffer. This gives me hope that they might improve it substantially during mid-term refreshes of this chassis.

Even then, I don't think the analogy to the improvements Gen5 Camaro saw with the ZL1/1LE makes sense. There were already Holden products in Australia, using the same platform, with much better handling than the 2010 Camaro. This leads me to think that the vast improvement in 2012+ is not due to a breakthrough or sorting out a chassis that just came out in 2010, but it's rather due to GM dropping the ball on the Camaro when it released Gen5 for the first time. I've actually never ever seen a car platform making such a come-back besides the Gen5 Camaro.

I doubt that any car these days comes to market with nothing held back in reserve with respect to cornering & handling. Yes, a slightly grippier tire (either 5% grippier outright) or a car that's 5% better at using what's available in that 3 seconds per 3 minutes example) would need a few things changed to optimize it. But FWIW I suspect that slight revisions to just the damper curves, sta-bars, and maybe alignment specs would get you most of the way there for track purposes without affecting street qualities too much . . . or about where the differences between the SS and the 1LE are.

About alignment . . . it's a shame that C/D doesn't measure and publish that. Currently, there is no way to tell if some cars are delivered with "ringer" settings while others run on settings closer to OE preferred, but I'm betting that this does happen.

Terry Fair (of Vorshlag) does a lot of testing for the projects that they build and compete with, and they've always found that in these relatively heavy cars, more tire on wider wheels always brings lap time improvements even when they aren't changing anything else. Neither the 1LE's advantages there in full OE trim nor the low-hanging fruit still on the S550's tree can be overlooked.

In short, I strongly believe that "if only it had better tires" or similar statements are misleading. Does S550 have more potential? I sure hope so, but it's hard to know for a fact at the moment.

Even if we throw out the wet-to-drying Day #1 results from the just-completed SCCA Solo Nationals there is pretty good evidence already that this is indeed the case. I suspect that neither the top S550 nor Dave's 1LE was running on OE shocks and struts, which brings their relative performances back to being more about the tires. In FS, that doesn't leave much else.

Back to GT350R; looking forward to seeing the real tests and comparisons!

Same here, plus any 1LE-level or higher tweak to the 6th gen. Not that I really want to have to go back to work . . .


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Pushrod Pete

speaking of the new chassis, the new SS is looking like it will crush the 1le's lightning lap with a 3,685 curb weight!

The next question is will they be able to bring it in at that weight in the V8 trim (and not just the 4-cyl base car).


Norm

[67Builder]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The next question is will they be able to bring it in at that weight in the V8 trim (and not just the 4-cyl base car).


Norm

The 4cyl is 3340 (allegedly).

[Iron Oak]

Originally Posted by Synner

I'm more impressed with the new vette than anything although I worry about heat soak and reliability

I spent last weekend down to Nola Motorsports Park driving the new Z06 and others on the track with Xtreme Xperience. The ambient temp on the track maxed out at 108 degrees. Heat soak was my prime concern with the supercharger. To my very pleasant surprise, the Z06 kept going like a champ. All the cars were running for 10 hours straight. Only stopping long enough to switch drivers every few laps. Very impressive. And the handling...this car is a supercar killer.