engine info on LLN

[radz28]

Good point. Since the LS2 is gone, I guess that leaves the LS3

With all the susposed development of supercharged engines (what, something like four different variations) I can't imagine that there can't be a Shelby fighter. I keep reading the goal is to exceed the Mustang in every way so I just want a confirmation

[brasscorpion]

I am not here to bash the Camaro...I love the car and I want POWER just like everyone else...but POWER cost money.

Everyone is talking about the Shelby GT500 and "what will the Camaro do to beat it". Well the GT500 puts out 500hp and the 2008 GT500KR puts out 540hp. Yes the internet is wonderful!!! But now lets talk reality.

You know how much they will cost? Just an "Estimate" is $52,000 for the 2008 GT500KR and my buddy sitting next to me at work said he went to a Ford dealer here in California (bought a new truck) and witnessed a guy pay $62,000 Cash for a fully loaded 2007 GT500 version. MSRP doesn't mean SHIZNIT...I saw the stupid Toyota Prius going for 35,000+ easy when they first came out...supposed to be an MSRP of 25-27.

You get your hands on a 500+ HP Camaro for under $50,000 and you can most likely sell Holy Water to the Pope. The Camaro Convertible SS or Z28 will go for around 34-38,000.

A P.O.S. 300hp Mustang GT fully loaded already pushes 30-32,000 (yes I built it at Ford.com).

Lastly: Watch any Fast and Furious movie...it may have you rethink who Ford and Chevy cars are competing with. If any of you have the DISH Network...they have a channel called SPEED...I suggest you watch that too and familiarize yourself with a sport called Drifting (that GM thought they could break in to) and an organization called NOPI. Oh and TUNERVISION...

When GM and Ford were building Camaro's and Mustangs...everyone was buying Honda Civic SI's and shortbed Nissan/Toyota trucks and lowering them to the deck and stuffing them full of speakers...That's reality!!!

I agree...We will see.

Brass

[radz28]

I don't think anyone has said we want 500 horsepower for $35K. That's what I'd like to pay but I know that's not practical. GM has said that they want to compete with Mustang on every front, and I'm sure price is included, therefor, if they have a 550 horse model for $50k (or whatever) then there you go. I don't expect to get something for free and if I can afford that kind of payment for that kind of power, I'm down.

[DGthe3]

Nobody who is thinking lexus or BMW will give a Camaro much thought as an alternative. Even if they have similar performance numbers, their costs are radically different. As far as markups for cars like the GT500, there is nothing to prevent that from happening. however, just because someone wants to pay a massive dealer markup doesnt mean that the car is worth that much. MSRP is the best way to compare how much a car is worth since dealers are free to charge whatever they want.

I generally classify direct competitors to the camaro as cars with a similar layout, that are priced to within about 15%. So a car that delivrs the same performance for an additional 50% of the price isn't going to be stealing any sales from the Camaro. So a turbo charged import that seats 4 and costs 45000 can only really be compared to the Camaro on the track. At the showrooms there will only be a few competitors. Similarly, the Civic Si and the base V6 Camaro might be comparable in price and power to weight, but after that they are completely different cars.

[radz28]

Yeah; I think it will take a long time for the Camaro/Firechicken to loose the stigma it has from the 80s and Burt Reynolds. I could care less what those drivers think however they're entitled to like what they do. I also agree that perhaps the market this car fits into is more broad, as you are describing.

[91camaro355]

New member heres a little somthing i found when looking for info on saleen camaro

Saleen: I hope I don't get in trouble with GM for saying this, but they're using a 6.2 liter 450 horsepower engine for the premium V8 in the 2009 Camaro and the base Corvette. The base V8 will probably be a detuned version of the same 6.2. So we'll just upgrade the 6.2 liter V8 to Saleen level specifications. We're going to upgrade the 6.2 liter V8 if we're given the legal chance by GM. Our base model should have around 485 horsepower, and expect our Extreme Supercharged Camaro to have over 600 horsepower.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by 91camaro355

New member heres a little somthing i found when looking for info on saleen camaro

Saleen: I hope I don't get in trouble with GM for saying this, but they're using a 6.2 liter 450 horsepower engine for the premium V8 in the 2009 Camaro and the base Corvette. The base V8 will probably be a detuned version of the same 6.2. So we'll just upgrade the 6.2 liter V8 to Saleen level specifications. We're going to upgrade the 6.2 liter V8 if we're given the legal chance by GM. Our base model should have around 485 horsepower, and expect our Extreme Supercharged Camaro to have over 600 horsepower.

Welcom to the site!

Yeah, That's been posted here already.

Then that knucklehead Saleen was caught on tape at a ford rally bashing GM and the new Camaro. That's also posted here somewhere...

[Splicerguy]

There had been a lot of speculation that the 6.2 would be the engine for the Camaro, but a few months ago fbodfather told us to forget everything we've been thinking about the engines. Thus began the discussions about the yet to be unveiled GenV V8 engines form GM. From what I can tell, the Saleen quote is from 2006 and things may have changed since then.

We're all anxiously waiting to see what will be in the engine bay !!!

[Gatecrasher]

I don't know how we can forget what we know when GM has such a rich engine history to build off of.

Let's take a step back for a second and try to look at the bigger picture. Maybe then we can fill try to in the blanks.

Look at the product cycles for the previous Corvette and F-body V8s. The Corvette has always taken out the lead engine for each new generation. Do we really think the Camaro is going to change that? It's possible, but unlikely.

GEN II - LT1 93-96 4 model years
GEN III - LS1 97-04 8 model years
GEN IV - LS2 05-07 3 model years
GEN IVB- LS3 08-11? 4 model years (This puts us real close to the lifespan of the Gen III. Maybe right on if the LS3 lives on until the 2012 Camaro)

According to this link the next gen Corvette is supposed to start production in summer of 2010, which would probably make it a 2011 model. (BTW, this guy has an excellent track record regarding future production plans) That'd be the perfect time to drop a new Gen V. So what does that leave us with in the meantime? The Camaro needs to stay a little behind the Vette for prestige reasons, as well as cost. The Camaro can't lead a brand new engine line because it'd add significant cost to the car. It's already entering a shaky market IMHO due to the fuel economy situation.

So if it's not going to be a brand new engine, we're left with an existing engine, or a variant of an existing Gen IV engine.

AFM = Active Fuel Management / Displacement on Demand

LLT 3.6L DI V6 280-300 hp <---Camaro base/RS sits here. Car already photographed with this engine, or something VERY close to it.
L76 6.0L V8 w/ AFM 355hp <---Maybe. It makes sense for a Z28. Soundly thrashes the Mustang. Currently used in Zeta G8
L98 6.0L V8 w/o AFM 362hp <---Currently used in overseas Holden Zeta cars
L92 6.2L V8 w/ AFM 380-403 <---Now you're talking, but you're starting to close in on LS3 territory.
LS3 6.2L V8 430 hp <---This would make a nice Camaro SS. This also backs up Steve Saleen's statements.
LS7 7.0L V8 505 hp <---Good base for a ZL1, but don't get your hopes up. Hand built with dry sump and exotic materials = $$$
LSA 6.2L V8 550 hp <---More $$$. But hmm...another 6.2L...
LS9 6.2L V8 620 hp <---Megabucks. But yet another 6.2...

So, in the last 12 months GM has introduced 3 performance engines, all 6.2L in displacement, based around the LS3 long block as a core. We're looking at a market that is going to place huge importance on fuel economy, so the DI V6 makes sense for the base car. The Z28 is also (hopefully) a volume car, so it'll need fuel savings too. The SS model would be a niche seller, so like the Vette, things like AFM aren't as important. But 415-430hp still puts you well shy of the 470 in the Mustang GT500. Likewise, if you bump up the LS3 to 450-ish, that steps on the toes of the Vette guys, and opens a huge gap between the 280-ish hp base Camaro and the SS.

The SS wouldn't need to win the horsepower-on-paper battle with the GT500 because it's got the edge in technology. It's got an advanced IRS, a lighter naturally aspirated aluminum engine, and it'll likely be considerably cheaper. If GM nails the weight and the gearing, they can beat the GT500 with considerably less power.

Which still leaves us with this mystery Z28 engine. My money is on either the L76 or L98 with AFM, somewhere in the 360-380hp range. If they're going to a common LS3 block, and if Steve Saleen is correct that it's a detuned LS3, maybe it'll get bumped to 6.2L too. 375 horsepower has a real nice ring to it.

[DGthe3]

*anyone that prefers the Z28 to be topdog, please just swap Z28 and SS*

I wish we could refer to trims by name without having to add a disclaimer. It really slows discussion down.

[Mr. Wyndham]

I've read over the UAW agreement with GM (pdf)...and the GenV engine is going to start production in 2011. You can hold me to that. So suffice it to say that I, personally, have lost all hope for a Generation V small block in the first year Camaro. That's not to say i wouldn't be OVERJOYED if it happened. But I'm not counting on it.

So...no GenV (yet). As for the argument about Vette getting it first...I wouldn't be so sure. This isn't "your daddy's Camaro" (). It's been said by Ed Peper that there's no worry whatsoever about stepping on the Vette in power - both of them being in completely different segments and all.

But I agree with your overall logic, Gatecrasher.
The latest rumor I've heard is that they'll use the L76, but bumped up in power to damn near close to 400hp. Don't quote me on that, but I'm led to believe it, because I should hope the Camaro gets a wee bit more power than a sedan (no matter how fast it is already).

Having said that...it is quite easy for me to forget all of this (Like Scott suggested we do) and regress to knowing nothing. Because those mighty powertrain boys are always up to something...and if they've come up with a new variant of a GenIV engine, well then this whole discussion is moot. I hope I'm right on that count.

[GTAHVIT]

Question:

Aren't the LS8, LS9 and LSA Gen V engines or are they the Gen IVB?

I know the LS8 information hasn't been officially publicized yet. But it seems to get rumored into the mix as a 450+ option into the 5th gen (SS/Z28).

Or are we thinking "no" since it is a GenV motor?

I guess the number that I keep comming back to is the LS2, in both the concept and the CTS-V, which produces 400hp. Again, my personal opinion, The camaro should hit showrooms with more available HP than the CTS-V. A sports coupe should have better numbers than a sports sedan. Now I understand that 1/4 mile, 0-60 times depend on all factors that end up at HP/Lbs ratio. But I don't know that cosumers think that way. I think GM knows that the number that counts most to most consumers is max hp...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

Question:

Aren't the LS8, LS9 and LSA Gen V engines or are they the Gen IVB?

I know the LS8 information hasn't been officially publicized yet. But it seems to get rumored into the mix as a 450+ option into the 5th gen (SS/Z28).

Or are we thinking "no" since it is a GenV motor?

They are still Gen IV motors. The only groundbreaking difference would be the Supercharger...and that's not enought to designate a whole new Engine generation.

[radz28]

It seems to me being the Camaro has always been a Ponycar for GM and also had some musclecar status that it would be pretty dang close in power to the CTS-V because there is nothing that has been introduced that fills this void. That probably doesn't read right so...