How would you feel if the 2013 has more?

[charly_rock]

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

I'm not going to lie, I'd be upset. I fully expect for there to be improvements down the line and have no delusions of forever having the highest performing Camaro ever produced.

But with that said, even though history has shown that manufacturers have upped the ante the following year after the release of a new model (Z06, Mustang GT), this situation would be even worse with the very short model year. Significant performance improvements only 5 months after the introduction of the model is sure to rub many 2012 owners the wrong way.

With that said, I highly doubt we'll see anything like that for the 2013MY. 2014, on the other hand, would be a great year to really up the ante. Either way though, I know I'm going to enjoy the hell out of my 2012 for a very long time. You can play the waiting game forever... I'm done waiting.

I am with you Brother... I waited long enough !!

[IOMZL1]

I decided to get the 2012 after thinking about this for some time. I’m fairly sure I’ll be keeping this car for a long time and I’d rather have the shorter 2012 MY run. If there are significant improvements in performance for 2013, 2014, or 2015 in I’ll trade in for the 2015 ZL1 if I so choose. It will really have to be something major such as 25+ HP, major suspension changes, huge weight reduction, or aero improvements. The changes would have to be significant enough to be a big step in real world performance above 2012 in one or more of the performance categories. If they just change tires to improve the ring time that won’t matter to me as I can easily buy different tires as needed.

I hope to be alive in 40 years, but on the other hand I could die next year so I’d rather get the 2012 and enjoy it for a few months.

[b4z]

I would expect there to be improvements in either quality, options or performance from year to year.

[Scarrzz]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

Honestly, I would not be surprised if there were improvements made to the 2013 ZL1, in any way, shape or form. I anticipate that happening. It's an automotive arms race. The Big Three are racing to the finish line, wherever that is. Chevy strives to beat Ford, and visa versa. I have a 2012 ZL1 on order. If they bump it up 50 horsepower for example in 2013 and sweaten up the pot by offering some other package upgrade for example, I will not be upset or bothered at all. As the 2012 ZL1 stands, it's way much more car than I can legally use. As Chevy call it...."barely street legal". I would offer a suggestion for those waiting to see numbers and results before they purchase one of these megaton horspepower juggernauts as currently available from Michigan. Don't wait too long, the improvements will keep coming until the CAFE sunami hits. That will be the big game changer.

I'm actually HOPING they bump the HP to 600+ because my pride will be in driving a ZL1, and I'll be able to brag on the ZL1 versus whatever based on the top performance values for the latest model year.

Also, the one thing I was not truly "astounded" by on the '12 ZL1 is the quarter mile time. I hope, pray, and expect to see a production ZL1 doing 11.xx quarters next year.

Somebody bet me a dollar. (I need the money.)

[fiascoes1]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Maybe. One thing you have to remember though, newer cars with all the polyurethane and plastic are not going to hold up as well over time as the original muscle cars. With them, rust was your biggest enemy, with newer cars, chemical breakdown is the foe. Besides, if you look at the average age of the majority of people on the ZL1 buyers list, how many of them are even going to be alive in forty years?!

Just cause the owners will pass on doesn't mean the cars will. There is always some one that will inherit the car.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Maybe. One thing you have to remember though, newer cars with all the polyurethane and plastic are not going to hold up as well over time as the original muscle cars. With them, rust was your biggest enemy, with newer cars, chemical breakdown is the foe. Besides, if you look at the average age of the majority of people on the ZL1 buyers list, how many of them are even going to be alive in forty years?!

I need to show you my Dad's '79....

The soft-touch everything has contracted in spots over time and torn itself to shreds. I'm sure he could have done a better job maintaining it...but you've head it many times before -- the reason they opted for some of the polymer materials was for durability...they weren't "cheap", as so many assume.

They'll last. And seeing everything coated underneath from the factory makes me so happy.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I need to show you my Dad's '79....

The soft-touch everything has contracted in spots over time and torn itself to shreds. I'm sure he could have done a better job maintaining it...but you've head it many times before -- the reason they opted for some of the polymer materials was for durability...they weren't "cheap", as so many assume.

They'll last. And seeing everything coated underneath from the factory makes me so happy.

'79? Not really what I would consider the muscle car era. I'm talking mid-'60's to around '70. I'm not sure, but I think plastic use in cars started to become prevalent in the mid-seventies, unfortunately, the idea was way ahead of the technology. Yes, today's plastics are much, much better, but over time, they are going to break down.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Cars were rust buckets back in the day. Cheap steel without galvenized properties made them highly vulnerable and susceptable to oxidation.....rust never sleeps don't forget. Having welded on them all, Ford, Chevy, Chrysler; in patchwork repair with fabricated repair panel pieces to "keep em flying" only kept the cat in the bag for so long. With todays modern metals rust through is almost a thing of the past. New chemical processes make plastics and synthetics much more durable than their predecessors. I'd take a car from today for longevity over anything from the past.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by tooslow

'79? Not really what I would consider the muscle car era. I'm talking mid-'60's to around '70. I'm not sure, but I think plastic use in cars started to become prevalent in the mid-seventies, unfortunately, the idea was way ahead of the technology. Yes, today's plastics are much, much better, but over time, they are going to break down.

If you're talking in terms of a century...I'd be right there with ya.

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

Cars were rust buckets back in the day. Cheap steel without galvenized properties made them highly vulnerable and susceptable to oxidation.....rust never sleeps don't forget. Having welded on them all, Ford, Chevy, Chrysler; in patchwork repair with fabricated repair panel pieces to "keep em flying" only kept the cat in the bag for so long. With todays modern metals rust through is almost a thing of the past. New chemical processes make plastics and synthetics much more durable than their predecessors. I'd take a car from today for longevity over anything from the past.

The idea that plastic = cheap has been long-enduring...but it's used everywhere, because precisely the opposite is true in many cases.

[daveagogo1]

They will probably just offer a dealer installed blower upgrade through GMPP at a very very high price and retain warranty. Certainly would not require much to swap over to a 2300.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The idea that plastic = cheap has been long-enduring...but it's used everywhere, because precisely the opposite is true in many cases.

Please...it's used so much because it is cheap (meaning not expensive) to produce and can be molded to almost any shape. Yes, there are some very durable plastics out there but, in my experience, not many of those are found to adorn automobiles.

Polymers on the exterior of a car are subjected to the adverse effects of light, oxygen, heat, oil, road tar, grime, ozone, etc., and, even though durable, these elements will cause polymers to degrade. Degradation ultimately results in loss of strength, decreased flexibility, discoloration, ease of scratching, loss of gloss, and cracking.

It is no secret that polymers degrade. They age, deteriorate, and weather due to three major factors: light (photodegradation), heat (thermal degradation), and oxygen (oxidative degradation). Obviously, car designers choose particular polymers based on their ability to resist these types of degradation as well as to meet the unique mechanical properties necessary for functionality. Thus, a material such as ABS (a common plastic) provides myriad possibilities across a number of application areas, is simply not a great choice for automotive applications as it degrades quite quickly and easily.

Sure, if you keep you car in a garage and out direct sunlight during its lifetime, chances are it will take a long time to notice any effects from the degradation, but just because you don't see it does not meant is not happening.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by tooslow

Please...it's used so much because it is cheap (meaning not expensive) to produce and can be molded to almost any shape.

One of the main reasons that plastic is used in the automotive industry is that it is generally light weight, which help improves fuel efficiency over when materials employed in the 1960s are used.

I expect that vehicles built today will tend to last longer than those built in the 1960s, as vehicles in the 1960s were designed and built in an era when most people kept cars for only a few years, whereas, today vehicles are designed and built in an environment where the average vehicle on the road is about 11 years old.

Think back to 1965 and remember how many 1954 vehicles that one would see on the road then. In 1965 I remember thinking that a 1954 vehicle seemed ancient, whereas, today a 2001 vehicle doesn't seem all that old.

Regardless, 1960s vintage or today, a vehicle needs to be well maintained and garaged when not in use to have a chance or being in good condition 40 years from now.

[htron50]

I remember when they used cardboard molds and the dashboards were drying out and cracking. The Plastic was a step up in durability and reliability. I'm sure we could have real rosewood or mahogany, but I think we are getting a good blend of materials for the value. Now we have plastic bumpers and fenders. There is always room for improvement/progress. Look at the polymer intakes of today and the heat tolerances they have. Amazing. I'm not sure how long a life span they have, but it sure saves weight.

[radz28]

I didn't vote because I'm not getting a '12 (shooting for the last model year).

I really doubt we're going to see anything, power-wise, for '13. I'm still thinking about that butchered-hood car we saw a few months ago... Anyhoo - I could see a small Track Pack option, and even an even more aggressive package in '14. These F1 G2s are really impressing me so far, so I'm relaxing my stance on the PS2s, but I still think we might see some Sport Cups, because if they're good enough for Big Brother ZR1/Z06, I think there's a case for ZL1.

However - thoughts of Z28 are still dancing around in my head. That would be a great place for some Sport Cups, in addition to a lot of other ZL1 bits (chassis bits, mostly). This is the subject and area where I think limits would be made to ZL1 because of lack of $$$ and resources. But I digress...

I think LSA has room to grow, power-wise, and this is the primary area where I think GM might invest more time and money. It seems to me the active suspension should account for stickier tires and the PTM should be smart enough for more power, so I really think the foundation is there. We know the powertrain has been punished in track testing - I wonder what the safety factor was... I don't think it's a lot more (though I hope I'm wrong). It would be easy enough to add a couple pounds of boost with a bigger lower pulley, and maybe even better CAI (though it still remains to be seen, for me, whether it's necessary).

My point is: I think the foundation is really there, and that's why I've been an advocate since the idea Z28/ZL1 was put out there. A big@$$ rear chunk, stout transmissions, beefier chassis, and cooling to control the heat. While it might sting that there are faster hotrods from the factory in Dearborn, it's not like there are relatively easy mods' to more than even-up the score. 9 psi into the LSA is nothing compared to the 12-15 I keep seeing reported for the imp. Spend a little more than a grand on a pulley and tuning and you're easily matching that power. Maybe add some stickier tires and handling is squared away.

We shouldn't be upset that GM, or anyone else, is going to constantly try to improve the products we love so much. It happens with everything else. That's why we mod'. What's important is appreciating what we have and look forward to progress in the future, IMVHO.