*Pics* Why you should do a Solid Isolator Coupler...

[Modern07]

Just to clarify something here - there is NO additional cost of labor for putting the solid isolator on my build over the labor that I'm paying for changing the pulleys - just the cost of the part itself - a massive $60.

And that $60 is worth it so my car doesn't sound like the tractor in this thread:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310092

So Silver, your insinuation that Matt is charging customers over $300 labor for a part that is not needed is just plain incorrect - it is simply swapped out when the pulleys are changed and If I kept the original I'd save a huge $60 and potentially have a rattle can sounding mess.

I'm unaware of anybody that has changed just the isolator - that would be crazy...its just one of those items to change when doing pulleys and already there.

Easy decision for me.

[white ZL1]

Matt have you ever seen cracks in any solid isolators like in the pics shown above?
I know you said you've changed quite a few, but my guess is the snout probably hasn't come back off of a large majority of those cars.

[Matt @ FSP]

Originally Posted by white 2SS/RS

Matt have you ever seen cracks in any solid isolators like in the pics shown above?
I know you said you've changed quite a few, but my guess is the snout probably hasn't come back off of a large majority of those cars.

I've seen them in the M62/M90 units before sure the stock Eaton ones (Grand Prix/Bonneville V6 3800 series motors with the M90's on them)... I have never taken apart one with an aftermarket coupler that I have found broken.. But like all mechanical parts, I'm sure there are failures out there.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by Modern07

Just to clarify something here - there is NO additional cost of labor for putting the solid isolator on my build over the labor that I'm paying for changing the pulleys - just the cost of the part itself - a massive $60.

And that $60 is worth it so my car doesn't sound like the tractor in this thread:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310092

So Silver, your insinuation that Matt is charging customers over $300 labor for a part that is not needed is just plain incorrect - it is simply swapped out when the pulleys are changed and If I kept the original I'd save a huge $60 and potentially have a rattle can sounding mess.

I'm unaware of anybody that has changed just the isolator - that would be crazy...its just one of those items to change when doing pulleys and already there.

Easy decision for me.

I would have done the same thing. Can't wait to set the final results on your car. You are in good hands with Matt and Rodney, but you already know that.

[Modern07]

Originally Posted by silverds

Why has it become so difficult to understand.

The isolator is a coupling. A coupling is simply the connection between the input and output of a drive.

The reason it's called an Isolator is because it isolates the irregular oscillating motion of the engine crank from the rotor timing gears of the supercharger by absorbing shock.

When your pistons fire, they send a violent pulse that is transmitted from the piston head down through the rod into the crankshaft. The pulse is violent enough to actually cause your crankshaft to twist some fraction of a degree. At the end of your crankshaft is a harmonic balancer that has two purposes, to protect your crankshaft from harmonic vibration at specific frequencies and to minimize shock transmitted through your drive belt to your accessories. (i.e. HVAC Compressor, Water Pump, Alternator, and Supercharger)

The harmonic balancer does not completely eliminate vibration from being transmitted through the drivebelt, it only reduces it. So shock is still being transmitted through the drivebelt. External to the supercharger, there is one coupling between the drivebelt and the pulley. Inside the supercharger there is another coupling from the input shaft to the Timing Gears, and then another coupling between the teeth of the two gears.

So there are two "isolators" buffering the violent oscillating torque of the crank shaft and the relatively delicate teeth of the timing gears between your rotors. The Harmonic balancer and the internal isolator coupler.

Removing the isolating (shock-absorbing) coupling and replacing it with a rigid (non-shock-absorbing coupling) only serves to increase stress on the teeth of the timing gears. If you are concerned about the long-term serviceability of your supercharger, why would you do this? To protect a sacrificial part of the coupling whose only purposes are to keep the coupling fixed around a central axis and to provide resistance to the spring in the isolator? To reiterate, this shaft is sacrificial. It is intented to be galled by the spring until it fits snuggly in the grooves just like Memory foam.

Nice Diagram of a supercharger that uses a SOLID coupler by the way hahaha - argument FAIL!

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by silverds

Why has it become so difficult to understand.

The isolator is a coupling. A coupling is simply the connection between the input and output of a drive.

The reason it's called an Isolator is because it isolates the irregular oscillating motion of the engine crank from the rotor timing gears of the supercharger by absorbing shock.

When your pistons fire, they send a violent pulse that is transmitted from the piston head down through the rod into the crankshaft. The pulse is violent enough to actually cause your crankshaft to twist some fraction of a degree. At the end of your crankshaft is a harmonic balancer that has two purposes, to protect your crankshaft from harmonic vibration at specific frequencies and to minimize shock transmitted through your drive belt to your accessories. (i.e. HVAC Compressor, Water Pump, Alternator, and Supercharger)

The harmonic balancer does not completely eliminate vibration from being transmitted through the drivebelt, it only reduces it. So shock is still being transmitted through the drivebelt. External to the supercharger, there is one coupling between the drivebelt and the pulley. Inside the supercharger there is another coupling from the input shaft to the Timing Gears, and then another coupling between the teeth of the two gears.

So there are two "isolators" buffering the violent oscillating torque of the crank shaft and the relatively delicate teeth of the timing gears between your rotors. The Harmonic balancer and the internal isolator coupler.

Removing the isolating (shock-absorbing) coupling and replacing it with a rigid (non-shock-absorbing coupling) only serves to increase stress on the teeth of the timing gears. If you are concerned about the long-term serviceability of your supercharger, why would you do this? To protect a sacrificial part of the coupling whose only purposes are to keep the coupling fixed around a central axis and to provide resistance to the spring in the isolator? To reiterate, this shaft is sacrificial. It is intented to be galled by the spring until it fits snuggly in the grooves just like Memory foam.

Isn't that last diagram showing a solid coupler?

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by Modern07

Nice Diagram of a supercharger that uses a SOLID coupler by the way hahaha - argument FAIL!

Ha, you beat me to it. I thought it was a solid.

[Al C.]

Can we buy replacement parts for these Eaton sc's?

[djnice]

I like to hear all input on these kinds of technical items, but man, do we have to bash other people so bad. Is there some history between these guys?

[Matt @ FSP]

Al C: I know Eaton sells replacement parts for most of their blower lines.. I'm sure they have parts for the TVS's, but you'd have to check with them.

djnice: I don't know this other gentleman from a hole in the wall, I was not trying to pry anyone's decision into selling them an isolator that we don't even sell over the counter. Just trying to bring some information to the ZL1 community, and have a good discussion about these parts. However, he brought up a great pic of the Ford style TVS with the solid isolator and as we know that blower has been in use since 2007 GT500 model year and I don't do as many Fords as GMs but I have not had an isolator complaint on a GT500. Once again, I'm sure like anything parts fail and there have been but no one complains of any noise in comparison to the 09+ LSA's.

[mkorgan]

Matt, way to go taking the high road. The tone of the forums has become so combative lately I have chosen to not contribute that much because there seems to be someone looking to start a fight on every thread.

Looking forward to getting my car over to you later this month and getting the latest "snake oil" you got!!

[silverds]

Originally Posted by djnice

I like to hear all input on these kinds of technical items, but man, do we have to bash other people so bad. Is there some history between these guys?

You are the reason it's worth it for me to continue this discussion. I don't know Matt, FSP or any of the other clowns chiming in with insults. They must not like people who think for themselves. There must be some FSP sponsored club down on the gulf coast. At least that's where all the bashing posts seem to be coming from.

But don't let the silverds bashing distract you from the truth. I will likely get cursed at and bashed by the dim witted ones for saying this cause it might hurt feelings, sales and egos but I'm going to do it anyway.

GM warranties the LSA supercharger for 5 years or 100,000 miles. If there is a tuner that will put their money where their mouth is and offer the same, they'd have an argument. But as it stands you'll be hard pressed to get anything close. The best I've found is from Hennessey, 3 years 36,000 miles.

So there it is, the gauntlet is laid. If anyone is sure that their solid coupler is better than my spring loaded one, back it up. I have a 5 year, 100,000 mile warranty to back up my opinion. What do you have?

Does anyone on the high road offer a "Snake Oil" Warranty?

Heck I might even settle for seeing a solid coupler that lasted 100,000 miles. Surely with all his experience, Matt can recall one.

[Matt @ FSP]

Like I said in the other posts, I have no complete data on how long the solid isolators will last nor do I have on the tensioner spring isolators... I have numerous customers back in 2009 that we put solid isolators in when they were available, that are still on the road today. A lot of them are DD's, but I do not have a followup to this so I do not have mileage data for you. It would be great to actually get some standardized testing on this subject, but it would require a lot of time and money to do so the proper way which is just not worth it.

Our FSP ZL packages that are just getting ready for press release will have full warranties on all aspects of the motor. There will be different HP levels per package with realistic set forth goals before and after dyno numbers, and of course the motor warranty.

Ford does offer a warranty with their solid coupler TVS 2300 GT500's, 5 year/60k.

[Matt @ FSP]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

Matt, way to go taking the high road. The tone of the forums has become so combative lately I have chosen to not contribute that much because there seems to be someone looking to start a fight on every thread.

Looking forward to getting my car over to you later this month and getting the latest "snake oil" you got!!

No problem, all stocked up on it too We'll see you this coming week look forward to it!