Do you want a ZL1 automatic transmission option?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Viral

My issue is cost, compromise and complexity. On an ultra high end performance car, you can't always choose to please everyone by designing to the lowest common denominator. Look at the Camaro SS - it requires an ENTIRELY different powertrain, right down to a completely separate motor in order to provide an automatic option. That requires design compromises on both sides to offer each version. It also requires a LOT of R&D, factory tooling, manufacturing and parts costs. All of that drives up the cost of a vehicle. On a production level vehicle that will sell 100,000 units per year, the cost can be adsorbed fairly painlessly. But on a limited production car like the ZL1 that will sell, what, 10,000 a year? That cost WILL be extremely noticeable. You'll be driving UP costs while driving DOWN production of each individual model. There will also most likely be design compromises in the entire car (think about the gearing and exhaust differences in the L99 vs LS3 today).

The problem here, as myself and a few others cleared up before you came along, is that both the R&D has already been done on the CTS-V and the SS required special powertrain "compromises" to meet certain regulations (EPA). The L99 powertrain was made to avoid to the gas guzzler tax on the Camaro, but we both know the ZL1 will have this tax no matter what is done. Also, notice how there is no difference, that I'm aware of, between an A6 and M6 CTS-V besides gearing. So, I would be extremely surprised to see the Camaro team waste their time on a different powertrain to still not beat the gas guzzler tax; there will be no LSA-L99 hybrid.

On a production car, definitely offer all flavors, but on a LIMITED production vehicle, I voted to make it a pure driving machine with one powertrain. This is exactly what ford did with the GT500 and probably for the exact same reasons - No compromises.

Compromise what? The only thing they compromise is their sales potential! I see no reason at all for an Automatic to not be offered.

[illiceman]

Yes again on auto.If I remember right some of the early proto type pics did show a automatic in the interior shots.
I also can,t believe the general cant get the mileage up to a reasonable level.NO gas guzzler tax here.

[lafountain]

I have a friend who lost his leg in Iraq, though he doesn't currently drive a Camaro, if he wanted the top dog, he deserves the right to be able to own and drive one.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Viral

I voted for Manual only, and it's not for the reasons you stated. I personally prefer feel of driving a manual. I enjoy being in control of my vehicle and transmission. Stop and go traffic can get annoying, but it's a very small price to pay for actually rowing your own gears through the twisties. There's simply no analog in the auto-transmission world for me personally. But I have no desire to force my personal opinion on other buyers. They should be able to drive what they want.

You're like me. You LIKE the manual better than the automatic...and you have your reasons. I was referring to those who simply blast the automatic option across the board - not because of preference, but to puff their own ego.

Originally Posted by Viral

My issue is cost, compromise and complexity. On an ultra high end performance car, you can't always choose to please everyone by designing to the lowest common denominator. Look at the Camaro SS - it requires an ENTIRELY different powertrain, right down to a completely separate motor in order to provide an automatic option. That requires design compromises on both sides to offer each version. It also requires a LOT of R&D, factory tooling, manufacturing and parts costs. All of that drives up the cost of a vehicle. On a production level vehicle that will sell 100,000 units per year, the cost can be adsorbed fairly painlessly. But on a limited production car like the ZL1 that will sell, what, 10,000 a year? That cost WILL be extremely noticeable. You'll be driving UP costs while driving DOWN production of each individual model. There will also most likely be design compromises in the entire car (think about the gearing and exhaust differences in the L99 vs LS3 today).

All good points, but you're drawing conclusions from the wrong assumptions. The SS didn't have a new powertrain developed for the automatic...it was actually for the Active Fuel Management system. It doesn't work with manuals, and that's about it.

They wanted the 25mpg number, and to get that, they needed to use AFM. To do that AND get the power an SS deserves, they needed a reworked LS3 - pop! We've got the L99....now it won't mate with a manual, because of NVH issues. So they use the automatic. But now...when the AFM activates....it sounds awful with a 'normal' exhaust system...so that means they needed to engineer a revised system to dampen the drone...

I'm sure during development they realized allowing a manual/auto LS3 option would be silly and cost-prohibitive...so naturally, the two drivetrains diverged into exclusive pairings.

The ZL1 is different, because an auto option wouldn't change a thing about the engine or exhaust, and fuel economy isn't a prime concern. There'd still be R&D costs, but they'd be much lower (I'd think) than in the case of the SS.

Still, the basic concept you raise is a good one. If the projected sales demand for an automatic ZL1 don't justify the costs it'd take to develop the option...then they're not going to do it.

[Ltespd]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

If we're going to deny people an automatic basically "just because," I think we should also deny ZL1s to people who express opinions like the above. It was irritating a few months after the Camaro was first produced ("Waaaah, I'm not the only Camaro in a 250 mile radius anymore!"), and it's just as annoying now ("Waaaah, I can't shift very well and if they offer an automatic ZL1 a computer might beat me at the track!").

Anyone who wants "niche" can go Bugatti. Barring that, so long as someone can bring the right amount of money to the table, let them have their automatic.

A 50k plus Camaro is definitely a niche car. If I want a car thats somewhat exclusive. SO WHAT! I know I'm in the minority but I only want a manual option. But what I really want is for GM to decide based on what they think makes the most sense for the company. Also I worry having a auto option may compromise the amount of HP the car may have. Compared to it having just the manual option.

PS-Anyone who cries because they might get beat by an automatic. Should get an automatic. I've always enjoyed racing against auto's.

[Ltespd]

Originally Posted by lafountain

I have a friend who lost his leg in Iraq, though he doesn't currently drive a Camaro, if he wanted the top dog, he deserves the right to be able to own and drive one.

I appreciate your friends sacrifice for us all. I honestly do. But is that a reason for a car company to decide to make an automatic option?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Ltespd

Also I worry having a auto option may compromise the amount of HP the car may have. Compared to it having just the manual option.

It should only compromise drivetrain losses...the CTS-V puts down 556hp with either a manual or auto.

[lafountain]

Originally Posted by Ltespd

I appreciate your friends sacrifice for us all. I honestly do. But is that a reason for a car company to decide to make an automatic option?

Realistically no, but was just offering another perspective. Not just for my friend, but for anyone who only has one leg. I realize they are a minority in terms of population, but shouldn't they have an option?

[SonnyakaPig]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, etc. seem to make it just fine with paddle shifters on their race-inspired steering wheels. Plus, I would be absolutely surprised to see any DOD or VVT in an automatic version of the ZL1; it didn't happen on the CTS-V with the LSA - Auto combo nor is there reason to do so on the ZL1. Plus I wouldn't call it a "disaster" tuning or modding the L99s, considering, e.g., JRE and TSP are doing just fine with it.

My car -- C63 -- has an awesome steering wheel feel and it has paddle shifters.

Just adding to your list.

[SonnyakaPig]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS-CGM

Edit:
Now here is the important part. At C5 Fest I talked with John Fitzpatrick who was already aware of the poll and he told me that if I got it to 1,000 total responses then he would give a final answer about the transmission.

Mr. Fitz stated there would be a final answer upon 1000 responses. One would think, for there to be an answer, the decision must already be made?

Not suggesting they would be the only ones that find it desirable, but why would someone buy a muscle car and let it do the work for them? Fun is in the Row.

My car is an auto (C63 AMG) and I had an L99 Camaro with a KB twin screw.

I would vote for their being an Automatic option.

But, I would like to know from others if the LS3 cars with the manuals work better with a top mount blower than the L99's with auto's? What I'm asking is, because cars with blowers have a lag, the effectiveness of the trans is very important.

My current car has one hell of an N/A motor in it. The auto works well, but it has a pretty decent Manual mode and I find that I really prefer driving my car in Manual mode. Yet, I'm still wanting for a manual in my car.

I've never owned a car with a manual. The main reason I didn't get the GT500 over the C63 was because I was affraid of purchasing my first manual and not liking the responsibility of shifting all the time. I can say that even with the C63's nice Manual mode, you can still forget about downshifting if you're driving leisurly.

Now, I wish my car had a Manual. And, because of the Mods I did to my Camaro (F/I), I know I may have still been in that car if I had opted for the manual.

Maybe things have changed but in the past getting the tune right with the LS3's seemed easier. Sure, GM can create a great trans tune and if aftermarket blowers are made for the ZL1, tuners will get the job done too.

But, I have to say, I would chose the manual for the ZL1. I finally understand the comments about "real driving is with Manuals." Obviously, Autos are more efficient and some great autos are available, but in this price range, I don't see GM building a better auto than Mercedes' 722.9, the one currently in the C63.

I haven't driven the 6L90E though. But, even if it's as good as the auto in my Merc, it's still not considered that great overall compared to the newer MCT's, which the C63 will be getting next year.

Personally, I think the auto may spoil the fun of this car. But, I know there are others like myself at one point that didn't get a car because it only had a Manual option.

[SonnyakaPig]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

It should only compromise drivetrain losses...the CTS-V puts down 556hp with either a manual or auto.

More specifically, it puts out 556 hp. I honestly don't know if the manual CTS-V has more rwhp. Do you know if there's a difference?

[SuperH]

Originally Posted by Stay Marine

debatable......but that's why we were all given opinions....

But like so many other evolutions...this is inevitable.

Heck, how long has Chevy been pushing out pick up trucks with no standard transmission option... se la vi

That's why I haven't gotten a new Chevy pick-up truck. I'm looking at other vendors - first time, ever. These are decreasing in prevalence. Dodge has a nice offering - RAM 2500 with 6.7L Turbo Diesel I6/M6.

My baseline standard for fuel economy is ~15, so I'm good there.

[FastEddie]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

If we're going to deny people an automatic basically "just because," I think we should also deny ZL1s to people who express opinions like the above. It was irritating a few months after the Camaro was first produced ("Waaaah, I'm not the only Camaro in a 250 mile radius anymore!"), and it's just as annoying now ("Waaaah, I can't shift very well and if they offer an automatic ZL1 a computer might beat me at the track!").

Anyone who wants "niche" can go Bugatti. Barring that, so long as someone can bring the right amount of money to the table, let them have their automatic.

Um. Bugattis are auto only Einstein. K, bye.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by SonnyakaPig

Maybe things have changed but in the past getting the tune right with the LS3's seemed easier. Sure, GM can create a great trans tune and if aftermarket blowers are made for the ZL1, tuners will get the job done too.

Swap one blower for another after paying 50+k? Wouldn't it be better and cheaper to just mod up an SS? Warranty would be gone anyway.

Originally Posted by SonnyakaPig

More specifically, it puts out 556 hp. I honestly don't know if the manual CTS-V has more rwhp. Do you know if there's a difference?

Yes. He does, I think he was refering to the 26 extra produced in the SS manual. It would be the same power produced on the ZL1 regardless of stick or auto.

Originally Posted by FastEddie

Um. Bugattis are auto only Einstein. K, bye.

Who gives a damn? Seriously. Who sits and studies that kind of stuff? Dude, seriously, you must be a total encyclopedia of worthless info that nobody on a Camaro forum gives a $hit about. His point was cost, not tech.