What else does GM have up there sleeve for the ZL1?

[thePill]

Originally Posted by radz28

It's the same head, minus some intake port modification and production differences in how they're cast. I think they'd have to change the whole head, because otherwise, the injector would poke out right above the dang sparkplugs. OR - they'd have to move or change the design of the coils and get those off the rocker covers. I have to find pics' with valve covers off, because depending on how they would angle the injectors, they might just not fit, period, in the valve cover opening.

This is on topic It might be closer to a wishlist-type thing, but it could be a trick, LOL! From the looks of what we've been shown so far, though, I don't see this happening

GM would have to redesign the head again. The LS3 head uses an .24" offset rocker/pushrod guide that was moved from the intake port, deeper into the head casting. This was done to create maximum intake flow over the LS2. The intake pushrod now runs directly through the head where the DI injector would enter from. In order to make it fit, the pushrod would have to be moved back into the intake port (like the LS2) or the DI injector would have to be specially designed or angled around the guide altogether.

GM does have something coming out to fix this, It is an entirely new engine that has a lifted cam which angles the pushrods out of the way of both the casting and intake port.

[Z4me]

Originally Posted by radz28

Apparently I'm a happy drunk, considering all my smilies...

Haha, my wife says the same thing about me (happy drunk) thankfully, after a night out with friends. Actually having a few beers after a long Monday as I type this .

As far as pill, I think for the most part he's pretty informative (alot more then I could ever be), and gives us a nice perspective about the issues. Even though I will disagree from time to time with his logic. We have owned more mustangs in out family then camaro's starting with my dad's 67 hardtop.
My brother owns I think a 2005 GT, thats before they became butt ugly in the past 4 or 5 years.

The camaro in comparison to the mustang is a thing of beauty (my first camaro), and when this ZL1 comes out it will be in my driveway. As far as the final look of the LZ1 we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I'm just happy thier making this car. If things stay the way they are, np I'll still buy the ZL1 and wait for some after market modes, that's half the fun actually. Bottom line this is one sick car and if the mustang comes back with something nice too, so much the better. This will push GM even further to bring out some more weapons such as the Z28 down the road. After all in three to five years my ZL1 will need a little brother or sister (if my wife decides to drive the Z28).

Great thread btw .

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Why would the ZL1 be a waste of investment just because Ford's GT500 was theoretically trimmed from the lineup? GT500 sold just fine when there was no competitor from Chevy. If what you propose were to occur, the ZL1 would still be in very much demand (not artificially limited production), and what's more, some potential GT500 buyers would flock to Chevy showrooms.

How do one-off cookie-cutter cars hint at ALL to production wheelbases of the cars whose names they wear?

The GT500 sold very well without a competitor for several years, If the GT500 were released as a 550hp/510tq, Brembo'd, SVT packaged, EPAS, PTWA cylinder walls, All Aluminum blocked, TVS S/C'd, 3800lb/23mpg car in 2007, Do you think that Ford would have very much more to put into the car? Wouldn't that be money not well spent? The same thing should be taken into consideration with the ZL1. The ZL1 will sell whether or not the GT500 comes to market regardless, but most halo, parts bin cars push the boundaries of realistic profitability. The Ultimate Camaro, sparing no expense can be brought to market at the maximum dollar spent and still sell the amount allotted... or can remain competitive in that market, dollar for dollar, performance to performance and still sell the amount allotted.

I hope you agree that this vehicle still needs to cater to certain rules, one of those rules being production cost. If the car cost too much it will show in the invoice, which will show again at MSRP.... Initially, I think that 75% of ZL1s will be spoken for before the "Ok to sell" date drops... It doesn't really matter if the car suffers a $3000 loss per vehicle or a $3000 gain because three quarters of those vehicle will never see a dealer lot... I just think GM would like to see +$3000 instead and putting all you got into one MY, especially when the competitors actions are still unknown. Everyone who wanted a GT500 most likely already has one, I guess there would be a small fraction of the 4000 2013 GT500 potential buyers that would seek performance elsewhere if NO 2013 GT500 existed, but how much are they willing to part with? If GM jumps the gun, they could possibly exclude those buyers with a healthy MSRP, and thats before the dealers give the window's the white pen. Lets put all our eggs into one basket, that way when we have the only basket... people will have to buy our eggs. It could work but it's a marketing risk and empting your sleeves the first time out like an over eager magician wouldn't leave much left for the rest of the act...

How do one-off cookie-cutter cars hint at ALL to production wheelbases of the cars whose names they wear

Just as it has always been, NASCAR's Car of Tomorrow program requires the production car to have similarities to the production car they represent. It was always like this but the COT is even more strict on how far the production cars wheelbase can be off. It must remain reasonable within the 110 inches NASCAR requires. It could be +/-, but 107 inches is what Ford runs now, GM runs 111 I believe.

I think you underestimate the General's ability to think for itself...which confuses me, greatly.

29,000 left unsold to dealers and over produced as MY11 began production on 3 June, 2011

Not saying that a company can't make good decisions, I just think there might be some people inside that company that can't...

[fad1]

remember *subject to change

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

The GT500 sold very well without a competitor for several years, If the GT500 were released as a 550hp/510tq, Brembo'd, SVT packaged, EPAS, PTWA cylinder walls, All Aluminum blocked, TVS S/C'd, 3800lb/23mpg car in 2007, Do you think that Ford would have very much more to put into the car?

Apparently they do...since so many Ford boys are waiting for some check-mate change to the model after the ZL1 is on the prowl... I kid....but some of those things didn't exist in '07, and others were always needed...but lack of competition tends to soften you up...In that respect, Chevy was very much a leader. Since that seems to be the theme of the week, I had to point it out.

Originally Posted by thePill

I hope you agree that this vehicle still needs to cater to certain rules, one of those rules being production cost. If the car cost too much it will show in the invoice, which will show again at MSRP.... Initially, I think that 75% of ZL1s will be spoken for before the "Ok to sell" date drops... It doesn't really matter if the car suffers a $3000 loss per vehicle or a $3000 gain because three quarters of those vehicle will never see a dealer lot...

....I just think GM would like to see +$3000 instead and putting all you got into one MY, especially when the competitors actions are still unknown.

Oh, I agree that it needs to be priced competitively. And I'm absolutely confident it will be. That said, I can't think of a good reason to withhold any features you can include within that price-point. While it would be nice, I don't believe the Camaro team is in the game of over-charging to compensate for future changes. You'll notice they changed the price halfway through the 2010 MY when backup sensors were added to the 2xx models....

The ZL1 must be a smash-hit or it will be swept under the rug in the midst of the recent Mustang-hugging trends in the automotive media. And it will be - but to do that, they'll need to pull from every resource available to them while still meeting the constraints of the cars intent. If they're withholding any features, it's because they aren't ready for prime-time, not because they want a card up their sleeve for later, imo at least....call it an 'impression' I've gotten after speaking with some of them over these past years.

I am curious....what exactly are these "eggs" we're talking about anyways? Is this solely about the automatic, still?

Originally Posted by thePill

Everyone who wanted a GT500 most likely already has one,

Quite a bold statement to make...what about the people who don't know they want one, yet?

What I'm trying to say is that there is a general market for this style of ponycar outside of the enthusiast.....The GT500 has supplied it for several years, and if Ford pulls the car - they'll basically hand the entire market over to the ZL1 making its success that much easier. And if the enthusiasts buy a metric crap-ton of ZL1s its first year or two (here, I'm talking 6-7 thousand units being a lot), that general market will have to wait with no other comparable to car to buy instead...essentially equating to a reservoir of sales for Chevy...ideal outcome? Absolutely...realistic? Maybe. Possible? Absolutely.

My point here is simply that the GT500 is not the end-all in this niche. If it disappears, the demand won't. Enter the sandma---er, ZL1.

Originally Posted by thePill

Just as it has always been, NASCAR's Car of Tomorrow program requires the production car to have similarities to the production car they represent. It was always like this but the COT is even more strict on how far the production cars wheelbase can be off. It must remain reasonable within the 110 inches NASCAR requires. It could be +/-, but 107 inches is what Ford runs now, GM runs 111 I believe.

I still don't believe any NASCAR-spec vehicle will be a good sight at production specifications. One thing to remember is that CAFE is footprint-based. This is its biggest loophole, and one you can expect manufacturers to exploit. The bigger the wheelbase...the bigger the footprint...the less of an impact this vehicle's mpg rating has on the fleet average. Even if the 6thgen shrinks respectably from size of the current car...the wheelbase will not shorten drastically...a couple inches, maybe...

Originally Posted by thePill

29,000 left unsold to dealers and over produced as MY11 began production on 3 June, 2011

Not saying that a company can't make good decisions, I just think there might be some people inside that company that can't...

? I'm not sure how this is relevant to the companies' product-development prowess we were discussing?

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I still don't believe any NASCAR-spec vehicle will be a good sight at production specifications. One thing to remember is that CAFE is footprint-based. This is its biggest loophole, and one you can expect manufacturers to exploit. The bigger the wheelbase...the bigger the footprint...the less of an impact this vehicle's mpg rating has on the fleet average. Even if the 6thgen shrinks respectably from size of the current car...the wheelbase will not shorten drastically...a couple inches, maybe..

I am working with the Alpha ATS's 3 series fighter dimensions based on the optimal wheelbase the 3 series is using. Surprisingly close to a Buick Regal.

107.9-108.7 inch wheelbase, 181-190 overall, about the same width not sure about the front and rear tracks yet. Unless they use "Ford space metal" as GM-gineers call it, I expect weight to be just under 3700lbs, best case it could get close to 3600lbs.

I expect the ZL1 to do well in 2012... All our cars will be dinosaurs in 2013... The ZL1 in 2013 will most likely be dealing with a 3400lb, 440hp, 29mpg DI V8 that will come in the base GT... They should have put it out in 2009...

If the ZL1 doesn't win next year, thats its last chance till 2015+..

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the companies' product-development prowess we were discussing

Company bad decisions always affect projected profit regardless if those bad decisions were made in Research, Developement, Production, Marketing or Sales. In this case, it was Production, Marketing and Sales that dropped the ball..

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by thePill

I am working with the Alpha ATS's 3 series fighter dimensions based on the optimal wheelbase the 3 series is using. Surprisingly close to a Buick Regal.

107.9-108.7 inch wheelbase, 181-190 overall, about the same width not sure about the front and rear tracks yet. Unless they use "Ford space metal" as GM-gineers call it, I expect weight to be just under 3700lbs, best case it could get close to 3600lbs.

I expect the ZL1 to do well in 2012... All our cars will be dinosaurs in 2013... The ZL1 in 2013 will most likely be dealing with a 3400lb, 440hp, 29mpg DI V8 that will come in the base GT... They should have put it out in 2009...

If the ZL1 doesn't win next year, thats its last chance till 2015+..

Gen V small blocks will be out before 2015 ...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

I am working with the Alpha ATS's 3 series fighter dimensions based on the optimal wheelbase the 3 series is using. Surprisingly close to a Buick Regal.

107.9-108.7 inch wheelbase, 181-190 overall, about the same width not sure about the front and rear tracks yet. Unless they use "Ford space metal" as GM-gineers call it, I expect weight to be just under 3700lbs, base case it could get close to 3600lbs.

Well...the 3-series starts around 3400 lbs, and it's been stated repeatedly that the goal was to be slightly smaller and lighter than that 'benchmark'...so I think a 4-cylinder ATS will probably come in to around 3400, if not less. Other than that...there's very little solid conjecture on what this car will be. When it comes out -- it ought to be a treat.

Originally Posted by thePill

I expect the ZL1 to do well in 2012... All our cars will be dinosaurs in 2013... The ZL1 in 2013 will most likely be dealing with a 3400lb, 440hp, 29mpg DI V8 that will come in the base GT... They should have put it out in 2009...

If the ZL1 doesn't win next year, thats its last chance till 2015+..

Does it come with cast-sterling silver heads? Sorry...that was a little uncalled for......but I don't believe it...not for a second.

If they can figure out a way to take out that much poundage without shrinking the car considerably, compromising the already mediocre NVH AND keeping price down to a reasonable level...they'll have pulled off a miracle. And if they can somehow design and engineer an engine of that caliber so soon after their recent V8 powertrain revamp...well....I just don't believe it.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't think there's a snowball's chance in he!! that they'll invest that much into this car a year or two before replacing the whole lineup with a new car.

Originally Posted by thePill

Company bad decisions always affect projected profit regardless if those bad decisions were made in Research, Developement, Production, Marketing or Sales. In this case, it was Production, Marketing and Sales that dropped the ball..

But that's not what we were talking about...you insinuated GM couldn't properly manage their cars' development, and Ford excelled at it...I disagree. And as for the off-topic point, I still disagree...it's the middle of winter.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Well...the 3-series starts around 3400 lbs, and it's been stated repeatedly that the goal was to be slightly smaller and lighter than that 'benchmark'...so I think a 4-cylinder ATS will probably come in to around 3400, if not less. Other than that...there's very little solid conjecture on what this car will be. When it comes out -- it ought to be a treat.


Does it come with cast-sterling silver heads? Sorry...that was a little uncalled for......but I don't believe it...not for a second.

If they can figure out a way to take out that much poundage without shrinking the car considerably, compromising the already mediocre NVH AND keeping price down to a reasonable level...they'll have pulled off a miracle. And if they can somehow design and engineer an engine of that caliber so soon after their recent V8 powertrain revamp...well....I just don't believe it.

Don't forget ever increasing safety regs

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Apparently they do...since so many Ford boys are waiting for some check-mate change to the model after the ZL1 is on the prowl... I kid....but some of those things didn't exist in '07, and others were always needed...but lack of competition tends to soften you up...In that respect, Chevy was very much a leader. Since that seems to be the theme of the week, I had to point it out.

Oh, I agree that it needs to be priced competitively. And I'm absolutely confident it will be. That said, I can't think of a good reason to withhold any features you can include within that price-point. While it would be nice, I don't believe the Camaro team is in the game of over-charging to compensate for future changes. You'll notice they changed the price halfway through the 2010 MY when backup sensors were added to the 2xx models....

The ZL1 must be a smash-hit or it will be swept under the rug in the midst of the recent Mustang-hugging trends in the automotive media. And it will be - but to do that, they'll need to pull from every resource available to them while still meeting the constraints of the cars intent. If they're withholding any features, it's because they aren't ready for prime-time, not because they want a card up their sleeve for later, imo at least....call it an 'impression' I've gotten after speaking with some of them over these past years.

I am curious....what exactly are these "eggs" we're talking about anyways? Is this solely about the automatic, still?

Its always about the automatic, I would like to see a GMPP package instead of an Auto, MRC and Microfabric interior. I know the ZL1 will sell out, and most will be spoken for before they reach dealers, upon release. I would just hold out on some features for just a year. It would give GM something to work with later, unless they only intend for it to be out this year only..

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

Its always about the automatic, I would like to see a GMPP package instead of an Auto, MRC and Microfabric interior. I know the ZL1 will sell out, and most will be spoken for before they reach dealers, upon release. I would just hold out on some features for just a year. It would give GM something to work with later, unless they only intend for it to be out this year only..

Minor product improvements like an auto transmission occur as a result of further R&D after initial release...not planning the product 5 years ahead of time and keeping desired, insignificant features from your customers because you can't tell the future.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

If they can figure out a way to take out that much poundage without shrinking the car considerably, compromising the already mediocre NVH AND keeping price down to a reasonable level...they'll have pulled off a miracle. And if they can somehow design and engineer an engine of that caliber so soon after their recent V8 powertrain revamp...well....I just don't believe it.

EDIT: Oh, and I don't think there's a snowball's chance in he!! that they'll invest that much into this car a year or two before replacing the whole lineup with a new car.

Direct Injection with a 12:1 compression ratio can push another 20hp out of the 5.0 and you know DI is coming.

88lbs was shed from the new Fiesta just by changing the existing safety shell to another type of steel. A new Chassis could account for a majority of weight loss, the wheelbase/track remains the same and the overall length would decrease. Shorter exhaust routes by shaving overall length by a few inches.

If the 5/6 link Jag/Falcon type IRS (Control Blade IRS) is used, weight gain would be minimal and cost would be too... The only reason it seems far fetched is because GM doesn't use that Boron...

I can see a V8 equipped GT losing close to 200lbs, the Boron Fiesta lost 88lbs, aced its crash test rating and only cost $15k for a base car. I still think the wheelbase will be around 107" and the Camaro using a 107-109" wheelbase. I can see a 3450lb car...

The ATS Alpha looks like it will be a great platform, A V8 equipped car with a 108 WB can weigh as little as 3600lbs and be very close to the M3 in weight just as long as the V8 isn't heavy... They also could lose some weight in the 4 link IRS and eliminate the giant "L" link...

Edit: I think you are assuming that I am talking about MY13, I am not.... MY13 comes out Jan 2012 the same time the 2012 ZL1 comes out....

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Minor product improvements like an auto transmission occur as a result of further R&D after initial release...not planning the product 5 years ahead of time and keeping desired, insignificant features from your customers because you can't tell the future.

I'm not saying they will keep those insignificant features from the public, I was mostly referring to performance... If GM thinks the general public needs a velvet shift knob.. then velvet it is... I was thinking more towards a Dual Wet Clutch paddle 6L90 and dual ECM's to support a factory flash.. Performance features that do not require a new engine certification but are drastic....

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Don't forget ever increasing safety regs

How can they ever possible expect a car manufacturer to pass a crash test rating, meet a minimum fuel efficiency and reduce weight and maintaining the current power of a certain model?

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

If they can figure out a way to take out that much poundage without shrinking the car considerably, compromising the already mediocre NVH AND keeping price down to a reasonable level...they'll have pulled off a miracle. And if they can somehow design and engineer an engine of that caliber so soon after their recent V8 powertrain revamp...well....I just don't believe it.

If I would have told you in 1983 that the carburetor was being replaced would have believed it? (I know, you wasn't there). If I told you in 1991 that Aluminum engine blocks and heads were going to replace cast iron, would you have believed me? 1995, Forced Induction V8's would be found on family cars in ten years!!! If I were to tell you and every one of your ancestors that there would be a 550 horsepower, street legal car, not a single one would believe me in their prime...

There will always be advancements that will be hard to accept or believe, in automobiles, but the things you readily accept, are the words spoken from a man that is trying to sell you a car, on a website that is specifically intended to do just that.. and not believing in something because this particular product does not use it now.... too me that is unbelievable... And to think that GM isn't holding something in reserve for this new Mustang would be bad... Two years is a long time, Sales are already slumping after 2 years, can they really hold off a redesign by playing everything right now?

The Vert will help, for three months.. then back to the trend. GM seemed to know what they were doing by holding out on that, right when they need it the most. This market is stagnant, All three didn't break 10,000 sales combined last month and its gonna get worse.. This is the S197's last model year, GM would be wise to hold out alittle or sales could quickly become like the other two... Only difference is, the other two's model life expectancy has been exceeded...

And as Ford pushes the Mustang up into the 3 series realm come this redesign, with the Camaro's current weight and size.. I don't think GM will be invited... When the Camaro does see a new body in 2015, Ford with their one horse wonder, will again put GM into the same Camaro/Firebird predicament with the ATS/Camaro.. competing in the same market with two different vehicles...

[radz28]

Personally - I don't think GM will hold anything back if it's ready. If it's met all it's obligations and certifications, I believe we're going to see it. I really don't get the feeling GM runs the way your saying. I have nothing to support that, but they're in the business to sell cars, first. They know the passion, especially behind CAMARO, and have gone to great efforts to include content based on input from the customer groups they've put together for input and feedback (the Deciples). The people we know to work at GM that posts in this Community are VERY aware at what this car means, and even the people who actually build this car know our passion, too. Look at the lithographs, comments, and members to who come in to participate.

I think GM is coming up in a great way; just look at the products it's coming out with. I see passion and technology dripping from them. If they have something up their sleeve, they aren't going to dangle it in front of us if it's ready to go. I don't think they'll withhold some just to keep it for later. Just because a new Mustang is coming in a few years doesn't mean GM's going to wait to release technology until then. I think they want to be the first, just like they were with MR, next generation EPS, IRS, etc. Getting CAMARO back into the game and making the car what it is was no small feat and now it's time to have some real fun. If there is an area where Ford may have had an edge, it was here. They're not enjoying that edge anymore, because ZL1 is serious as a heart attack.

What's up GM's sleeve for ZL1? A big 'old knuckle sandwich for anyone who questions the new GM and CAMARO.