Shouldn't we be comparing this to the new Mustangs?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by rayhawk

May not be a fair comparison, but looking at the M3 specs, this seems along the same lines of a fairly high revving motor to reach those power numbers. I just wonder how much they will have to give up in terms of efficiency to reach that power level. The M3 has only a 4L v8 and gets 20mpg highway, I think mainly due to the aggressive cam profiles required to spin to 8k rpm. I think the camaro and mustang will be two pretty different machines-which I prefer over everybody copying the other guy. Makes it more interesting.

It isn't fair. You're talking about a 25% difference in displacement for the same power. The extra torque will allow Ford to ease the revs back to normal levels to make that power.

Also, where did you get the M3 fuel economy? I've been looking for a while and I've never seen any real numbers. Were the released in the last couple months?

[rayhawk]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

It isn't fair. You're talking about a 25% difference in displacement for the same power. The extra torque will allow Ford to ease the revs back to normal levels to make that power.

Also, where did you get the M3 fuel economy? I've been looking for a while and I've never seen any real numbers. Were the released in the last couple months?

I saw the fuel economy numbers on the BMW website. I know it is a smaller engine, I was just using it as an example of how you can get 400+hp out of a small engine but torque will be significantly less-the M3 has less than 300ft lbs peak torque. For this reason even a DOHC 5.0 motor will have a real hard time keeping up with the LS3-regardless of the advertising hp number. I don't think they will need 8k rpm, but the peak will be well north of 6k, and torque will be somewhat low until you get to 4-5k rpm. I still think efficiency will suffer also, and they will have to be geared pretty aggressively.

FWIW I don't think ford will build this expensive of an engine for the base mustang GT, it just does'nt fit their business model for any of their vehicles. From the F150 to the Focus, Ford nearly always delivers a less powerful and slower vehicle than the competition at a lower price.

[Shifty 6]

Just some thoughts....

Ford likes to sell cars because it puts money in their pockets, its a similar plan to GM's.

Here's how they market the mustang...
Every girl in the world has dreamt of owning a mustang convertible since they were 16 years old in 1964. Why? Because it was cute. In the late sixties through even today there are a certain number of guys who want a mustang because they have 50 different versions and a couple of those have decent HP numbers. Of those few, most if not all have been Shelby models that were worth anything at all HP wise. In the 80's the mustang was on top, performance wise because of weight and size. Then GM stepped up the game in '93 and it has been "Katie bar the Door" ever since. The Camaro has always been on top performance wise, with a couple of very low volume, high dollar mustangs as exceptions.

Now the Camaro is coming back and it looks like they are going to out perform the mustang again, and all the mustang guys are trying to defend their manhood. That's cool. Ford guys should not focus on the hopes of performance but the dollars that performance buys. Ford will have the dollar advantage, but GM will have the performance advantage.


Just my observations, and speculations.

[syr74]

I simply provide the info, as stated earlier what you guys choose to do with it is up to you.

[Max]

Wow the guy hates fords.....But went on to say if it were not for the Mustang we would'nt have a new Camaro.........Hum, I geuss i should be on the lookout for mad Camaro owners...I knew i put that supercharger on for a reson.

[camaro5]

Originally Posted by syr74

I simply provide the info, as stated earlier what you guys choose to do with it is up to you.

Thanks for the info. When posting Ford info here, expect backlash from some people, this IS a GM site.

I'm betting posters of Camaro info aren't entirely welcomed at a Mustang site either.

I'll look forward to 2011, but that's a long way off in automotive years, these days especially. Will the Mustang finally get IRS then?

The refresh that will compete with the Camaro is a dismal failure, IMHO.

Same ugly, cheap interior, changed a little. Same nice exterior, changed a little.

Same primitive solid rear axle.

Doors blown off by Camaros...Pure failure.

Cheap prices will keep 'em moving though. A car for all types. :flag2:

[Max]

BMC Welcomes you...Come on over.

[playhard67]

This thread was about comparing a 2010 camaro to a 'presumed" 2010 Mustang. All of a sudden we're now comparing a 2010 Camaro to a "supposed" 2011 Mustang that is far away.

By 2011 Camaro will have an even more powerful car. Hmmmmm do I hear Z28??

Keep the comparison to 2010 to 2010.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by Max

Wow the guy hates fords.....But went on to say if it were not for the Mustang we would'nt have a new Camaro.........Hum, I geuss i should be on the lookout for mad Camaro owners...I knew i put that supercharger on for a reson.

so you could have as much horsepower as a stock LS3? lol


seriously, its not like we HATE the Mustang, its kind of like sibling rivalry... you always hate your brother or sister until someone else disses them... and then you defend them... and that is how I am with American iron, be it GM, Mopar or FoMoCo... and I've driven just about everything... Fords, Chevys, Ponchos, Oldsmobiles, Dodges, Plymouths, etc... you name it, I've probably driven at least one of 'em... and I just settled in on GM products because of their quality, performance and overall styling.

well, that and the fact that Fords suck :P

[blackZbandit]

Originally Posted by Max

Wow the guy hates fords.....But went on to say if it were not for the Mustang we would'nt have a new Camaro.........Hum, I geuss i should be on the lookout for mad Camaro owners...I knew i put that supercharger on for a reson.

I hate my mother in law but I love my wife... what's the difference?

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

and make no mistake, nobody wants a Mustang to compete more than I do... I WANT Ford to do well and I WANT Ford to build a really great car to compete with the Camaro... but this is the same battle that was going on in the '60s, '70s, '80s and '90s... and Mustang guys INSISTED that their cars were faster and all the magazines, test tracks and professional drivers proved otherwise... the Mustang is a nice car, but to say that it owns the Camaro is wrong... its NEVER owned the Camaro...

bottom line: bring it, Pony boys... we'll be waiting at the drag strips, deserted roads and red lights with our 5th gen Camaros... the Pony car wars are back!


VIVA LA MUSCLE CAR!

I agree with you that the Mustang played second fiddle to the Camaro performance-wise in the '60s, '70s, and '90s, but I would say you're wrong about the '80s. From 1987 to 1992, the Mustang did own the Camaro. And the magazines and professional drivers were the ones saying that. In fact, you should read this Car And Driver article from 1987 to refresh your memory (ironically enough, posted on a Camaro site):

http://www.thirdgen.org/best-america...river-june1987

The funny thing is, I was always a GM guy and owned a 1974 Z28, a 1980 Z28, and a 1984 Z28. I ordered the '84 with the L69 H.O. engine option and the performance axle, so it was the top dog Z28 back then. The thought of ever owning a Ford never entered my mind in those days!

Then in 1987, a co-worker was telling me that his Ford Capri could beat my Z, and I'm like "yeah sure..." Well, one night we ended up next to each other on the highway at about 60 mph, we both punched it at the same time, and to my utter disbelief the Ford just pulled away from me. I gave up at 80 mph because I could see it was over. That was humbling to say the least. The next day the guy told me that he surprises Camaro/Firebird guys with his car all the time - it had the same 5.0 engine as the Mustang, but it was in this non-descript sleeper car, and that's exactly why he bought it.

So after that I did some research of my own, and to this day I still have that Car and Driver magazine with the above article in it. And the next car I bought was a 1987 Mustang GT. I liked the car so much that since then I bought a 1995 GT, and then the car I have now, the '05 GT.

The Camaro/Mustang rivalry has always been one of the best ones in American automotive history, but it wouldn't have been much of a rivalry if the Mustang never took the crown. So I'm just here to tell you that the rivalry still lives, and for a little while anyway, the Mustang did indeed own the Camaro.


ps - as I have said on this forum before, I have no blind loyalty either way. I love that the Camaro is back, that the rivalry is back, and that once again the consumer is the winner because we have a choice. The way things look now, I'll be buying a 2010 Camaro SS M6, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Ford comes back in 2010/11 with a formidable Mustang.

[SemperFi]

Originally Posted by UCF w00t

It's all speculation for now but it looks like the v6 Camaro and Camaro SS will still handle the v6 Mustang and Mustang GT respectively. According to Motor Trend, the new v6 will have the same power plant and the GT will basically get the Bullit's engine giving it 325-350hp.

This is correct. I think there are three available engines. Two V6's if im not mistaken. But it is a fact that the V8 Mustang GT will be unable to compete with the SS. For those of you with too much confidence in Ford... take a deep breath and relax.

[swifttal]

Originally Posted by wjones14

I agree with you that the Mustang played second fiddle to the Camaro performance-wise in the '60s, '70s, and '90s, but I would say you're wrong about the '80s. From 1987 to 1992, the Mustang did own the Camaro. And the magazines and professional drivers were the ones saying that. In fact, you should read this Car And Driver article from 1987 to refresh your memory (ironically enough, posted on a Camaro site):

http://www.thirdgen.org/best-america...river-june1987

If you noticed that wasn't the 350ci camaro, of which owned the mustang all through the 80s(since it was offered) and 90s. Have the 91 car and driver showing my z28 owning ford.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by wjones14

I agree with you that the Mustang played second fiddle to the Camaro performance-wise in the '60s, '70s, and '90s, but I would say you're wrong about the '80s. From 1987 to 1992, the Mustang did own the Camaro. And the magazines and professional drivers were the ones saying that. In fact, you should read this Car And Driver article from 1987 to refresh your memory (ironically enough, posted on a Camaro site):

http://www.thirdgen.org/best-america...river-june1987

The funny thing is, I was always a GM guy and owned a 1974 Z28, a 1980 Z28, and a 1984 Z28. I ordered the '84 with the L69 H.O. engine option and the performance axle, so it was the top dog Z28 back then. The thought of ever owning a Ford never entered my mind in those days!

I must admit that during the '80s, the Fox body LX models were seriously fast cars compared to their GT brethren and compared to the IROC cars... and you probably found one of the 3 articles from the '80s where the Mustang whipped a Camaro... but this one little stretch of history does not a pattern make... so I stand by my assertion that the Camaro has always been the final word in the Pony car market... the Mustang is the cheaper sales leading car and the Camaro is the performance car that people get when they want to win... and I'm quite positive that the Camaro will be more expensive than the Mustang in the next 2010+ models, too... but the question is whether or not the Mustang can hang onto those V6 sales... and whether Ford will be able to deliver a car that will outperform the SS models... which, since its return in 1996, the GT has been in the rear view mirror... and only after the Camaro was discontinued in 2002 did Ford come out with a car that could outperform the Camaro SS and Z28 from the factory... and even then, the Terminators were only slightly faster than a stock Z28/SS... my 2002 Z28 with long tubes and aftermarket exhaust completely hosed a 2003 Cobra and the guy was so mad about it, he took the car back to the dealership and demanded a reason why his car wasn't faster than mine... it was hilarious.

but I digress... the 2010 Mustang is NOT going to be competition for 2010 Camaro SS... and the 2010 Mustang is NOT going to be competition for the 2010 LS/LT Camaros, either... we wont start seeing the Mustang compete in the Pony car market again until 2011... and when we do, I suggest we start a thread and have this out at that time... but until we get some hard evidence about the 2011 Mustang's engine, transmission and performance, I suggest all the Mustang guys keep it to yourself, since there's NOTHING, I mean NOT A THING to suggest that the Mustang will do anything other than sell to the market that has made them famous so far: the girls.