Coolingmist Q & A. Lets talk Meth/water injection.

[GTAHVIT]

Yeah this is a no brainer.... After reading Kyle's thread. This is an easy choice.

Just need to save up the cash... Shouldn't be too long.

[speedster]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Wow...this thread has become a wealth of knowledge...

I understand the voltage input, now. And personally...I'd have to think MAF would be the very best sensor to use for that in a car like THR22. It's the most direct measure of airflow. And the more air you're flowing...the more methanol you'll need to keep the ratio of fluid-to-air constant through the rev range...

And if you use boost...that would limit the methanol to inject ONLY when the supercharger (in the case of the maggie) is being utlized. No boost means the bypass valve is probably open, and you're not in need of knock protection.


So...to REALLY boil this down....

Boost sensor will dictate whether the methanol is injecting or not, because boost is on or off, with some wiggle room, in a PDS.

And the MAF (voltage sensor), tells the system HOW MUCH fluid to inject...because you won't need as much at 3500rpms as you will need at 5500.

Is this right?

You have the idea. Just remember (not trying to confuse, but further info) many vehicles do not have a MAF. Some may be speed/density, some may be TPS, some are carbureted, some use kPa (vac/psi) and some use combinations of all these... whew !!

These meth/H20 injection units work really well in normally aspirated, high compression, carbureted motors too !! The principle even works on turbines.

Best thing to do - Have GTA get it installed on his THR22 so you have an excuse to come to FLA to, uh..."check it out" and make sure it works...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by speedster

Best thing to do - Have GTA get it installed on his THR22 so you have an excuse to come to FLA to, uh..."check it out" and make sure it works...

I like the way you think!




Now...here's a potentially stupid question...how to input the voltage from these myriad of sensors. Just tap the wiring, or does an extra sensor need to be installed?

[speedster]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I like the way you think!




Now...here's a potentially stupid question...how to input the voltage from these myriad of sensors. Just tap the wiring, or does an extra sensor need to be installed?

The answer is.......yes. It depends on the sensor output.

[coolingmist]

Alot of you guys are now running the CMGS system...so far nothing but great results. Here is a link to vortex superchargers website...a 10 second camaro built by Jannetty Racing (one of our distributors). This camaro has our CMGS kit.



http://vortechsuperchargers.wordpres...amaro-monster/

[cfcoates]

Fed Ex just dropped off my CMGS trunk mount kit. Give me a couple days and I'll post pics and a short review.

[dracer98]

Originally Posted by JohnInSoCal

what kind of tuning changes (if any) do you need to make after installing this ?

Originally Posted by coolingmist

if you put the system on a forced induction camaro and don’t make any tuning changes, the system will act as a safety buffer giving you lower octane requirements, cooling your charge and you will have a safer vehicle.

Well…If your forced induction car is tuned without water injection (Water/Meth) and you simply add the system - The only way it can help performance is if you had a problem prior. Like too much timing - if you had too much timing to begin with then when the water/meth mixture was introduced it would act as an octane boost agent to suppress that presumed knock (detonation) and that in turn would make more power – however that is a BIG IF – As in if your car was not tuned properly in the first place. So the simple and real answer is NO – simply adding water/meth to an already properly calibrated engine combo does not help – In fact it could hurt performance output – water as a cooling agent serves no purpose if the combo does not need cooling.

Originally Posted by coolingmist

You will certainly make more power because your intake temps will be lower and timing advance will take place along with removing a lot of heat, your power will increase.

Here what CM is saying is IF you cool the air intake temps then perhaps the ECM will have a place in the MAP to increase timing a degree or two. Think of driving your car on a hot day and then again at mid night 5 minutes after you started your car – meaning at night 5 minutes after you start the engine will be up to optimal operating temps but the surrounding area in the engine compartment and the air getting sucked in from outside is super cold. In that situation we all get that extra 10hp dyno-but-o-meter feeling. That is what CM is talking about and the only way you could make more power by adding water/meth on an otherwise properly tuned vehicle. Look at it like this. You would not add a water/meth kit to an otherwise stock untouched ZR1. It would be unnecessary. And again sure you could make the case that if you had a ZR1 towing a trailer uphill while in boost for a very long period of time with 140 degree air inlet temps (in that scenario) the water meth kit might perhaps add 10 hp and be a nice little insurance policy – Otherwise - NOPE

Originally Posted by coolingmist

If you have a tuner that can program your ECU to take full advantage of the methanol, you will have a very significant gain in power.

I agree 100% with this statement. What he means is for street car applications where 91 or 93 octane is the norm. The engine can only accept so much timing based on the octane of the pump gas. In that case the Water/Meth kit allows for more lead (lead is timing) in many cases a good water/meth kit gives the tuner the ability to run as much as 6 or 7 degrees more timing at same boost levels – That can equate to even as much as 80 more horsepower. Certainly 50 or 60 more HP is an easy target to hit. But the secret lies in the custom tune that is now dependant on the water injection. If you run out of water/meth bad things can and will happen – that’s why Mr. Cooling Mist builds all the safety features into his system. And that is a good thing

Originally Posted by coolingmist

The CMGS/VC2 have a failsafe feature that can be used to shut off boost control for a turbo or retard timing (if you have a timing box that can accept an input signal) as well as notify you visually what the problem is. These along with the flow display can save your engine as well as get you more power.
CM

These are all great feature and benefits but they won’t help all the Maggie/KB/Whipple guys in terms of boost retard and unless you want to add an MSD box that has the ability to take timing away from an LS ecm – his timing feature will be hard to utilize – that does not mean it is not a GREAT thing to have – just a hard thing to use.
The other half of the equation is the cooling effects. Sure cooling the air has and does pay big dividends as well and for the guys with Maggies there is probably something to be had in that department as well. Not often discussed but always on the back of every tuners mind is the fact that the puny (peony) (pew-nee) cooling cores found in the Mag/KB/Whipple type blowers can’t cool the air as fast as the blowers heat them up. And that is where the water/meth also helps out.

I would love to see dyno data on an 800 plus hp Magnuson LS3 vs. 800 plus hp Turbo LS3 vs. an 800 plus hp Vortech. And then to double the data let’s do a 6 second dyno plus vs. a 30 second dyno run. I am willing to bet the Vortech smokes the Roots guys and inches out the Turbo. In the 30 second test it would be even more swayed in the favor of the centrifugal So the guys running the mag/kb/edlebrock/whipple combos that want MAX power on pump gas – Cooling Mist is your best friend provided you get the right tune made for it – just make sure you never run out of the go go juice.
Why is it that you rarely see water meth kits being used on real race cars? Because they can run 100 plus and beyond octane fuels and huge air through ice water intercoolers. So if you have a handle on fuel octane and air temp via a no compromise intercooler – you have very little to no need to run water/meth. Since 95% of you guys on this board are looking for street car answers – you can in fact pick up great power growth via a water/ meth set up

So while many may think I am against water/meth at the beginning of this response and in the end I am all for it – I just want to give the factual part of the story – I don’t sell it but I have used it and I know what it is god for. Hope this helps.

[Kyle.Gilmour]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

Yeah this is a no brainer.... After reading Kyle's thread. This is an easy choice.

Just need to save up the cash... Shouldn't be too long.

dammit. always the guinea pig never the guinea.. or something like that.

why did i not know about this before. I am actually getting upset about why this happened to my car.

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I like the way you think!

Looks like I have some reading to do... and about that.. can you send me the cliff notes. hahaha.

Looks like I am going to do this on the new block just to be safe. Time to research.

CM- expect a PM from me.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Kyle.Gilmour

dammit. always the guinea pig never the guinea.. or something like that.

why did i not know about this before. I am actually getting upset about why this happened to my car.



Looks like I have some reading to do... and about that.. can you send me the cliff notes. hahaha.

Looks like I am going to do this on the new block just to be safe. Time to research.

CM- expect a PM from me.

I wouldn't get too upset... You were making big power.... 600+ on a stock LS3 is no joke.

But I think you helped some of us know where the limit is. It's gotta suck to be the guy with the broke motor... I feel for you bro.

[Kyle.Gilmour]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

I wouldn't get too upset... You were making big power.... 600+ on a stock LS3 is no joke.

But I think you helped some of us know where the limit is. It's gotta suck to be the guy with the broke motor... I feel for you bro.

I don't think the power had anything to do with it unfortunatly.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Kyle.Gilmour

I don't think the power had anything to do with it unfortunatly.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Kyle.Gilmour

Looks like I have some reading to do... and about that.. can you send me the cliff notes. hahaha.

Basically...methanol = higher octane, lower temps, much greater knock protection...but it's not a miracle-cure-all. For max benefit it needs to be tuned properly, and the injection controlled can be set for boost, a voltage input (like MAF), or both.

How's that?

[Kyle.Gilmour]

perfect, come down to Austin and tune my car ;-)

[FastOil]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Basically...methanol = higher octane, lower temps, much greater knock protection...but it's not a miracle-cure-all. For max benefit it needs to be tuned properly, and the injection controlled can be set for boost, a voltage input (like MAF), or both.

How's that?

Methanol injection is great i like 50/50 not 100% methanol it is very corosive and OEM parts are not designed for them in long term you will see the consecuenses of methanol,,, i will keep you intake manifold, intake valves and exhaust valves clean and top of your pistons,, you have to be carefull with cylinders wash ect..

but is CAN be great inssurance.

and i say CAN because you the user better know what you are doing and you better make sure that your kit has the safeguards necessary in place, as meth is very intrussive i haven not seen a kit that its pump has seals that dont fail in less than a year,, and if you tunned the car with X amount of boost and X amount of timming and your pump leak and you go WOT with not enough meth it only takes a split second of detonation to go Kaboom to your engine.

if you are only bolting it for added insurance and not tunning it then no wories ECU will pull timming in a pump or hoses leak,, but then again without a tune you are not getting its full effects.

let me break it down.

- you bolt the meth on
-you get the car tune, the reason you have meth is so you can turn the boost up and run more timming
- meth is corrosive and i have not seen a pump that has not leaked due to the meth eating the seals up
- leak happens and you have no safeguards like boost cut, fuel cut or others, then you knock there goes a rod through the block or piston cracked.


i dont mean to scare iam stating hands on experience,,, and a reputable shop can get you methanol water injection can get your kit working right..

And thas why i said to myself i will used race gas, have 2 maps on my ECU one for 93 pump gas and another map for 110 race gas sunnoco and not wory about all the nonsense.