The 2011+ Mustang Thread

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Sax1031

Actually the 03 Cobra approached the Z06 in rated hp. And was on par, or made a little bit more power, than the Z06 in reality.

Also when the GT500 came out the Z06 was rated at 505hp with the GT500 at 500hp. The ZR1 wasn't out yet.

At that time, there was no Camaro available. I was suggesting that the move by Ford was forcing GM into a position to tangle Corvette and Camaro markets. The Mustang has never seen a power increase so that it was difficult for the Camaro to follow due to the Corvette's status within GM.

Anyway, thanks for the quick lesson... I forgot how close the Mustang really got to the Corvette without the Camaro around.

[Rockhead]

Originally Posted by BigDan

They did, remember the Cobra R?

No I don't. How many of those toilets were on the road?

[KILLER74Z28]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

It's kind of entertaining to read everyone's underestimations of the ZL1 this early on....And it's even MORE entertaining to read assumptions of the GT500's superiority even EARLIER....

Granted, we don't know very much about either vehicle, but the stage is being set for a substantial "shock-and-awe", I think...or a disappointment. I guess it depends who you're talking to.

Lot of "bench racing" of two vehicles no one knows the true facts on yet...

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Rockhead

No I don't. How many of those toilets were on the road?

Not many. There were enough 03-04 cobras though and they were beating up on the corvette

[C5RocksC5]

Originally Posted by garagelogic

Threads like this do not go on for this long unless people care.

question for the Ford guys here....is there a thread in the Mustand forum about the ZL1 that invokes such a "oh no, not now, not again" feeling as the new GT500 seems to have done so here? lots of pages so far on this one.....

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Rockhead

Yeah they couldn't do it with motor.

Couldn't do what exactly? Absolutely destroy their competition like the 03 cobra did? I guess chevy can't match the gt500, or better yet the boss 302 which is still naturally aspirated, without a blower. . . I mean, if they do it one way, they obviously can't do it the other right?

[thePill]

Originally Posted by pdari

question for the Ford guys here....is there a thread in the Mustand forum about the ZL1 that invokes such a "oh no, not now, not again" feeling as the new GT500 seems to have done so here? lots of pages so far on this one.....

Oh yeah, when the ZL1 was announced in February, there were a lot of caution threads and defensive post. There was also a lot of bench racing and arguments. This is what this Pony Car War has evolved into, the internet was non-existent in the 80's and wasn't widely available in the 90's. That’s when a lot of illegal street racing happened... Oh how I miss those days.

Now I don't have to park my car in the car wash parking lot and argue about racing... We can do it here..

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

The aggressive move itself is not just adding the extra power, its the mark at which the extra power is rumored to be at. Ford has never offered a Mustang from the factory that pushed into the top tier Corvette's ratings, there was never any need to. There has always been a large gap between the Camaro and Corvette and I am eager to see if GM will finally pull the trigger. To me, Ford's move would be a skillful and deliberate automotive checkmate, knowing GM will be in conflict with these two nameplates... To me, this is very exciting.
I guess you're putting more of a value on the hp figure than I am. Logically...it would make sense that the Camaro would need/have more horsepower due to the simple fact that it's a large vehicle. I don't see this as conflicting with the Corvette at all...and if I elaborate a little...I'm not sure this is an issue within GM, because with the ZL1, it's apparent they're willing to surpass Corvette hp numbers...the Base, Grand Sport, and Z06 specifically...once all's said and done, I think it's likely the ZL1 official ratings to be very close to that 600hp ceiling. But again, I really don't weight the hp figures as much as many others do, so I'm probably not the right person to be talking about this....

I think that there are elements that resides there and on the Shelby sites, would rather argue about the name than talk about the car.
....Odd...sounds vaguely familar to Camaro5 circa November 2010 - February 2011....

Sales are important and the Camaro is the only pony car that is capable of sustaining the market right now. Not only is it important to GM, it is also very important to its competitors that share the market. Mustang's sales actually increased after the introduction of the Camaro in 2010 from 45k to 66k, from '09 to '10. Sale's do tell the story, as for the S197, the sales story is over... Any sales now are a gift... Since 2005, 750,000 S197 Mustangs were sold, god only knows how many people actually owned S197's that bought them second hand. The excitement levels for this model are gone..... that is why you see these special model Mustangs, just to sustain sales. By the time the 5th Gen Camaro is at its end, you will see special models as well, I believe GM is releasing a new Camaro every 6 months now, to keep the excitement alive.

Probably. I guess my statement was more of a 'card-up-the-sleeve' attempt to undermine the entire discussion...which was not cool, on my part. I get frustrated when the competitor's enthusiasts appear on our site (other cars section, or no) and try to put down our namesake...I equate it to coming into my home and crapping on the couch....It makes me very frustrated, indeed.

Originally Posted by thePill

[COLOR=black]I would have hoped the ZL1 would had already been released at this point, and regardless if the Boss is in ZL1 territory or not.. we still could be seeing comparisons. A win or a loss, I would still like to see these cars doing what they were intended to do.

That's an agreeable point. It's tough to recognize online though, because those who do the comparisons usually have their heads so far up their behinds we don't get a saliva-inducing read about how aweome these cars are - instead we're left with a colorful sensationalized story in which the author feels the need to very clearly and harshly pick a "side".

In my opinion...the Camaro and Mustang offer different flavors of the same kind of ice cream. In the end, we all love ice cream...but wouldn't dare eat cake batter if cookies and creme is on the menu...there's nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by garagelogic

Threads like this do not go on for this long unless people care.

For my part...I'm only post in here if one of you fellas makes a sideways statement...Can't let you get to comfortable....

Originally Posted by KILLER74Z28

Lot of "bench racing" of two vehicles no one knows the true facts on yet...

Yeah!! It's actually worse in here than when the Camaro first came out, if you think about it...at least the Mustang it was compared to was real...

[thePill]

Just a heads up, Motor Trend will be coming out with more info soon. I do not have a solid time.. but they are up to something.

[nester7929]

It's good that Ford is willing to step up to the ZL1, but there's going to be a point in the near future where it just isn't safe to keep upgrading the horsepower.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Yeah, I'm sorry -- there's internal testing and validation, and then there's SAE certification which makes things "official", and allows the company to put the little "SAE" logo next to their dyno graphs. This ensures there's no 'underrating', or 'cheating' on advertised power/torque. All SAE hp/tq figures are accurate to within (I think) 5% allowing for manufacturing variables.

They need to pay the society for the service, though - you're right: an expert/representative actually stands right there as it happens...GM has opted to have all their powertrains SAE certified.

The SAE certification process validates an engine to make +-1% of it's rated power. It's a VERY small window.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

The SAE certification process validates an engine to make +-1% of it's rated power. It's a VERY small window.

Thanks for the correction.

I wasn't sure exactly what the number was. For some reason 5% rung a bell...

[thePill]

I have heard that +/-1% was the SAE margin for error and I am not paying for the SAE documents to check it out. I think 1% is a good rule of thumb but I believe the SAE horsepower rating is a fixed number. If it was just 1%, the leeway would become greater for higher output engines. Here is an example of a + or - 1% in increments of 100hp
100bhp = 1hp +/- @ 1%
200bhp = 2hp +/- @ 1%
300bhp = 3hp +/- @ 1%
400bhp = 4hp +/- @ 1%

As you can see, in higher horsepower applications (5.0 and LS3), the standard 1% margin of error ceases to be standard and scales along with the output. Just because an engine's output is small, does not mean the certification method should be stricter. If the SAE leeway was a set standard, it would be standardized as a unwavering unit of measurement. Although I cannot confirm this, I believe that the SAE margin of error for certification is 5hp.

People will no doubt challenge this because they themselves have witnessed an engine, dyno significantly more horsepower than what is advertised. I honestly believe these people. As the engine is broken in, the engine will begin to produce more power once the internal engine components have settled in. I remember when the 5.0 was dyno'd by Edmunds, and it dyno'd at 395rwhp. It was however in 4th gear as I remember, but Livernois experimented with a 4th gear pull and found it to be within 5-9rwhp difference from a 5th gear pull.

Most LS3 and 5.0 owners can vouch that there can be a 20rwhp gain after 2000 miles on the odometer. If a Mustang dyno'd at 385-395rwhp from the factory without break-in, it would obviously be overrated. Even then, you would still have to account for the parasitic drive train losses.. and as of now... there is no possible way to measure or calculate those losses.

[BigDan]

Originally Posted by Rockhead

Yeah they couldn't do it with motor.

Originally Posted by Rockhead

No I don't. How many of those toilets were on the road?

385 NA horsepower just like the supercharged 03/04 Cobra's






http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...a_r/index.html

SVT Mustang Cobra R

GENERAL
Vehicle configuration Front engine, rear drive two-door, two-pass. Coupe
Engine type V-8, DOHC, 4 valves/cyl
Displacement, ci/cc 330.1/5409

Engine modifications Carillo connecting rods, forged pistons, McLeod aluminum higher-flow aluminum cylinder heads, Cobra 5.4-liter intake cams, tubular-steel exhaust headers, low-restriction two-piece intake manifold, higher-flow single-bore 80mm throttle body, K&N air filter

Horsepower, hp @ rpm, SAE net 385 @ 5700
Torque, lb-ft @ rpm, SAE net 385 @ 4500
Transmission type 6-speed manual
Tires/wheels BFGoodrich g-Force KD 265/40ZR18/18x19.5 forged aluminum alloy

Other modifications Fuel cell, front splitter air dam, rear-deck spoiler, power-dome hood, Brembo four-piston front calipers, Eibach springs, induction-hardened halfshafts, 3.55 rear axle, T-56 Tremec six-speed manual, Borla mufflers

PERFORMANCE
Acceleration to mph
0-30 mph 2.0
0-40 mph 2.7
0-50 mph 3.6
0-60 mph 4.4
0-70 mph 5.7
0-80 mph 7.0
0-90 mph 8.5
0-100 mph 10.6
Standing quarter mile, sec/mph 12.9/110.8
Braking 60-0 mph, ft 109
Lateral acceleration, g 1.01
Speed through 600-ft slalom, mph 71.1

Base price (stock) $54,995
Price as tested $54,995

Only 300 Cobra R models were built - all on the same line of the Dearborn Assembly Plant producing the V6, GT, and Cobra Mustangs. The 2000 model is the third generation of the Cobra R, following the successful and still sought-after 1993 and 1995 Cobra R models.