The 2011+ Mustang Thread

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

To be able to say "we used Carbon Fiber on the ZL1 versus the GT500's..."...definitely!! A relatively flat piece of CF is so easy to make...the cost is likely higher to cut a hole in the hood than to purchase the insert.




That.....I doubt.

true. I would rather bet that the car will have more than 556hp than weigh < 3900 lbs. I am fighting myself everyday......impatient and stupid side of me says, "talk to dealer now, make an unofficial reservation, and pay the mark up and order as soon as available". The wife side of me says, " wait til 2013.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

true. I would rather bet that the car will have more than 556hp than weigh < 3900 lbs. I am fighting myself everyday......impatient and stupid side of me says, "talk to dealer now, make an unofficial reservation, and pay the mark up and order as soon as available". The wife side of me says, " wait til 2013.

What about the bird on your shoulder saying "Do some research and shop for a dealer now that will commit to not selling over MSRP and order when it comes out".

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

What about the bird on your shoulder saying "Do some research and shop for a dealer now that will commit to not selling over MSRP and order when it comes out".

I haven't done that but it is hopeless in SoCal. I paid mark-up for my SS in 2009 Ahhhhhh forget it. Once I start talking about this, I won't stop and before I know it, I am totally obsessed and ready to pay whatever. Sux having OCD.

[thePill]

No 2.3L on the ZL1, and I used what weights I could find from the same source. For some reason, GM doesn't publish the weight of the LSA on their website...so like I said, that was the weak link in the calculation, but I erred on the side of caution. May I ask where you've acquired the 550lb number?

No 2.3? that sucks.. Anyway, the LSA's engine weight was discussed on the Caddy forums along time ago.
http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...009-cts-v.html The official engine weight of the LSA is 467lbs (which is really heavy) undressed and without plumming/exchanger. There was a build being done last year and the engine weighed 544lbs dry but I cannot find the site again (and it was on a scale) I will dig up the discussion about the LS9 weighing 529.9lbs ready to run.. I just need to look into it alittle more. Heres the PDF on the marine LSA weighting 467lbs dry with no auto dress, plumming or exchanger. http://www.gm.com/experience/technol...LSA_Marine.pdf

I'm not certain we're thinking of the same type of system. You seem to be referring to a "hybrid" electric-hydraulic power steering system, where I'm 99.9% sure the ZL1's is a full-electric assist. The entire hydraulic system is replaced with a small motor used to assist steering effort. It removes the traditional power steering pump altogether and all of the fluid that goes with it. I completely guessed on the number, but it does save weight in addition to better fuel economy.

Yeah, EPAS or EPS is an electric motor operating the power steering just as the belt formerly did. You are correct, this is not the old electric hydraulic, it is literally the same thing the traditional rack/pinion except the electric motor powers the device. As you can see, the power steering pump is no more. The old pumps were heavy, the new ones were alot lighter. Between 18-25lbs I would guess, I see some of the newer pumps around 11-14lbs wet.


Lemme look for that LS9 weight. Both the LSA and LS9 weights are hush fully dressed but there are people that have weighed them...

[thePill]

Ah, here is the LS9's dry weigh 529.8lbs http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...aft_specs.html

I can easily see an LSA being well over 550lbs wet.

[thePill]

I don't expect the V-braces or extra convertible bracing at ALL. This chassis was engineered from the beginning to handle huge power...that was also its biggest disadvantage when looking at the lower-power models, because they had to carry around that literally 'heavy' engineering. The coupe doesn't need a single piece of bracing anywhere to handle this power. I admit, the strut-tower brace eludes me...and I wonder if that may be more for show than go, but the added rigidity will help aid in suspension calibration.

I know the chassis can handle alot of power, but can it handle excessive g forces? GM said that they were doing it right, not adding additional structural support will gumby the chassis. If GM wants to forget the handling part and just go for straightline performance then take out the MRC. MRC alone will not wring out the g's, it will stabilize the ride during bumps. Chassis flex induces body roll, look what the X brace on the back seat of the Laguna Seca does, Most of the GT's chassis work came from the GT500 such as the front underbody brace it wears now. No braces would be bad.

Rotors should be a tad lighter based on my research, not heavier...but looking back, 3lbs less per rotor probably not realistic.

The old 2009 CTS-V's 14.6 inch setup was one pound lighter than the SS's 14 inch disc. The '09 OEM CTS-V's rotor weighed 25lbs but the massive 6 pot calipers were said to be 2lbs heavier. So you are literally looking at a 2lb gain and then some.

[thePill]

For the umpteenth time...ZL1 tires are ligher than OE. Even at 285f and 305r. Check TireRack specs...or any specs...if you don't believe me.

I haven't seen the new ZL1 tires on TireRack yet as GM will keep those off the list until the ZL1 is out. The SS's tires are 32lbs each (front) 36lbs each (rear), the 285's on TireRack weigh 29lbs with a 35 profile, that's not great but it is better than 32lbs. The 305's will be a 30 profile I believe so I can see that being 32lbs (Pirelli's 305's) with the extra width. That's 14lbs lighter than the SS's tire meaning only 8lbs were pulled from the wheels. I forgot that the quoted "22lbs" wasn't just the wheels, it included the tire weight as well. It would have been great if they could pulled that out of the wheels alone. Now it doesn't really seem like a weight saving measure, they just changed the tire and lowered the profile.

With lower fuel economy, reducing the size of the tank to save 15 lbs would be ridiculous...

A gallon of gas is roughly 8.34 pounds, so 25.02lb weight reduction with a 16 gallon tank. The GT and GT500 use a 16 gallon tank, use the tricks..

When the Z28 was being discussed, so was weight... I think once they started adding things on top of the basic SS, they soon realized that this thing was going to be a monster. Just with the engine and transmission alone puts this thing close to 4100lbs. Even the LS9 would only save about 20-30lbs... Now were talking a huge cast iron diff, "beefy" driveshaft, "beefy" halfshafts, exterior moldings, interior work, MRC and other improved suspension/sways. Adding all this up, we start pushing the 4200 mark. This is where the Wheel/tire combo comes in. The exhaust, which should be very similar to the SS's with the exception of the mufflers, manifolds and H or X pipe. I'm not 100% sure, but I think I have heard some folks going with aftermarket exhaust for a 35-45lb weight savings, won't pass emissions so I would say 15-25lbs is a good target area for exhaust.

This is only if there are no additional support braces under the car... Its only 20-30lbs but for handling... it has to be done....

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by thePill

I haven't seen the new ZL1 tires on TireRack yet as GM will keep those off the list until the ZL1 is out. The SS's tires are 32lbs each (front) 36lbs each (rear), the 285's on TireRack weigh 29lbs with a 35 profile, that's not great but it is better than 32lbs. The 305's will be a 30 profile I believe so I can see that being 32lbs (Pirelli's 305's) with the extra width. That's 14lbs lighter than the SS's tire meaning only 8lbs were pulled from the wheels. I forgot that the quoted "22lbs" wasn't just the wheels, it included the tire weight as well. It would have been great if they could pulled that out of the wheels alone. Now it doesn't really seem like a weight saving measure, they just changed the tire and lowered the profile.

A gallon of gas is roughly 8.34 pounds, so 25.02lb weight reduction with a 16 gallon tank. The GT and GT500 use a 16 gallon tank, use the tricks..

When the Z28 was being discussed, so was weight... I think once they started adding things on top of the basic SS, they soon realized that this thing was going to be a monster. Just with the engine and transmission alone puts this thing close to 4100lbs. Even the LS9 would only save about 20-30lbs... Now were talking a huge cast iron diff, "beefy" driveshaft, "beefy" halfshafts, exterior moldings, interior work, MRC and other improved suspension/sways. Adding all this up, we start pushing the 4200 mark. This is where the Wheel/tire combo comes in. The exhaust, which should be very similar to the SS's with the exception of the mufflers, manifolds and H or X pipe. I'm not 100% sure, but I think I have heard some folks going with aftermarket exhaust for a 35-45lb weight savings, won't pass emissions so I would say 15-25lbs is a good target area for exhaust.

This is only if there are no additional support braces under the car... Its only 20-30lbs but for handling... it has to be done....

very informative!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

A gallon of gas is roughly 8.34 pounds, so 25.02lb weight reduction with a 16 gallon tank. The GT and GT500 use a 16 gallon tank, use the tricks..

Sorry...gasoline is less dense than water...which is the value you used. Gasoline actually weights around 6.073 lbs per US gallon. Which, if using a 16 gallon tank (requiring a total redesign and revalidation) versus a 19 gallon tank would save...18.29 pounds. That's not much of a trick...unless sacrificing real-world range is a new selling point? A better, and MUCH cheaper solution would be to just not fill up before a lap, or a run. Pretend it's got a 3 gallon tank.

Originally Posted by thePill

When the Z28 was being discussed, so was weight... I think once they started adding things on top of the basic SS, they soon realized that this thing was going to be a monster. Just with the engine and transmission alone puts this thing close to 4100lbs. Even the LS9 would only save about 20-30lbs... Now were talking a huge cast iron diff, "beefy" driveshaft, "beefy" halfshafts, exterior moldings, interior work, MRC and other improved suspension/sways. Adding all this up, we start pushing the 4200 mark. This is where the Wheel/tire combo comes in. The exhaust, which should be very similar to the SS's with the exception of the mufflers, manifolds and H or X pipe. I'm not 100% sure, but I think I have heard some folks going with aftermarket exhaust for a 35-45lb weight savings, won't pass emissions so I would say 15-25lbs is a good target area for exhaust.

The name never had any attachments to weight. Whoever coughed up that rumor was ill-informed. The statement was that the "Z28" moniker would never be used on a Camaro not worthy of that hallowed name...It was a comment in response to the suggestion that Chevy should design a body kit, tweak the SS and call it a Z28. That'd be akin to calling the GT's track pack "Boss"....and the team wouldn't do that.

The fact is they never once addressed a Z28 in any official capacity...so we are held by the facts to believe they never intended to call this King of Camaros by that moniker. I believe differently...and think that after they looked at the sheer capabilities of this new rendition once it was near completion...they decided to take a step beyond heritage and bring the "ZL1" nameplate into the light for the first time. A legend in its own right...it is both old and new; representing raw power and cutting-edge technology. More fitting for this model than even the iconic 'Z28', and I'd have to agree.

As far as the exhaust...most of the weight is in the resonators and mufflers on the Camaro. Some have said the mufflers themselves weigh approximately 45 lbs, together. When you figure on replacing them with an axle back....there's the 20 lbs savings...plus or minus. And that's just about what Chevy's done with the Dual-Mode system. As long as the cat converters stay in position...it's an emissions compliant system, after-market or no.

There's only a few more things I can bring up at this point...for whatever it's worth...

Throw the paper and the time slips and the numbers out of the window for a second. When you have a passenger or two in your car. You're adding 200-400 lbs, unless they are dainty women (in which case, more power to ya!). And unless you're hyper-sensitive...you will not notice this weight...you just won't. Admittedly, you're not racing...but these cars will spend 90% of their lives on public roads, and that must be taken into consideration. Some have said that you're butt-dyno won't really notice that your car is lighter until you take out in the neighborhood of 500-600 sprung pounds. Whether this is "scientifically proven", or not...the fact is 200-300 lbs is hardly detected by your senses when you're already in a 2-ton car.....worrying about how to save 15 at high expense, is simply laughable...I put together that post, only because I enjoyed the math...I don't care if the car weighs 4300 lbs, because I know it will be damn good, regardless.

The point of that little rant was to get to this point: The goal with all performance cars, after the numbers game, is to connect with the driver. And even though it's adding some pounds, the ZL1 will be infinitely more responsive and "nimble" feeling than the SS, or even the LT models. THAT'S what's important to me...

And with that...I'll stop de-railing the .... 'valued' GT500 rumor thread....

[thePill]

The passenger does not need a six way adjustable power seat!!!! Power seats are heavy man. The difference is like 20-25lbs...

[snakekiller]

Originally Posted by sik68

Well we have 2 conflicting test results:

One test indicates that the Boss is at near "supercar" levels: Audi R8, GT-R, Z06 etc. but was done with a Ford-provided driver and I presume, a very specific setup for Laguna Seca: tire pressures, shock dialing, and maybe some other performance enhancing tweaks. Who knows...I am always a bit more suspicious of cars that are provided for press days.


The other test is a more apples to apples comparison: same conditions, same driver. Shock settings, tire pressures, and other parameters are not idealized. What can't be ignored is that this test shows the Boss didn't even beat its big brother....which actually makes sense. They still need to sell GT500's after all.

So, it's not a supercar. That's ok, it's still awesome.

MT and C&D both use their own professional drivers.

[thePill]

Ah, thanks for the gallon of gas weight correction... I hit the scales on the Autobahn the other day and I weighed 1617.963kg with 3-4 gallons of gas. You can definitely feel the difference in the car between a full tank and a 1/4 tank. There is absolutely no other variable that affects performance other than mass...

Edit: If I would have pulled some of the stuff out of the trunk and the car seats in the back I would have been at 3550lbs... There will be about 90lbs coming out of the car shortly.

[coolman]

How's all the bench racers doing tonight. I can't believe this thread lasted this long when the car is over two years from surfacing and the ZL1 isn't out until next year. Do you guys all realize that both companies could make changes to these two cars that could make this entire conversation a mute point? Either way it's been fun reading all the BS being spewed in here. LOL
Continue.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by coolman

How's all the bench racers doing tonight. I can't believe this thread lasted this long when the car is over two years from surfacing and the ZL1 isn't out until next year. Do you guys all realize that both companies could make changes to these two cars that could make this entire conversation a mute point? Either way it's been fun reading all the BS being spewed in here. LOL
Continue.

2 years? theyre talking about possible 2013 model year which i believe come out next year. read the posts.