Time for answers re: our tops! Scott, Jeff

[HDRDTD]

'IF' the new tops are thicker, wouldn't that have a tendancy to make the rubbing issue worse?

[95birdible]

According to my installer, the thinker top will give more cushion along with the tab to prevent friction building up when it is down. Hope it works

[95birdible]

These 2 pictures give a good perspective of the rubbing and pinching on the top. The first shows the pinch marks, the second the rubbing issues. Also not the rub mark in the center of the top in the first picture.

[JAustin]

Not bragging, but just to offer another data point:

Our copy was built in June (according to the door jamb sticker); we bought it the last week of that month. It now has 1925 miles, and we've cycled its (beige) top a couple dozen times in the 3 months we've owned it. I've washed it a couple of times, but haven't put any treatment on the top. We keep it garaged, sometimes with the top left down, often for a week or two at a time. We don't drive it if it isn't "convertible weather."

I've inspected the top very closely, and can't find ANY signs of rubbing, wear, tear, fraying, indentations, holes or punctures. The "ribs" in the frame do appear more noticeable under the raised top, perhaps because the fabric has stretched over time.

No doubt many of you have seen the video of Chevrolet testing the convertible top, cycling it up and down 7500 times. It seems unlikely that they could have done this and NOT noticed any wear, if this is a design flaw. (Or could it be that the wear/damage occurs when the vehicle is DRIVEN with the top down, and therefore not discoverable during stationary testing?) I also wonder if perhaps the cause stems from the inevitable copy-to-copy variations in the manufacture or installation of the tops?

I realize that all most of us care about is whether the problem surfaces on OUR individual copy. It would be interesting to learn, out of the total number of units shipped to-date, how many have demonstrated this defect.

(FWIW, mine copy's not perfect, either; one or both of the back speakers (Boston Acoustics system) distort while playing bass-heavy music (R&B) at very reasonable listening levels, with all the tone controls set to 0 (neutral).)

[95birdible]

You must have gotten lucky. Please post up pics of your top so we can get a look at it. Mine 2012 was built on 7/26/11. I was aware of the issues surrounding the 2011's when I ordered mine. I thought that they would be taken care of by the time the new model year rolled around. My own theory is that if they let the top drop farther down in the well so it was bunched up so much this may prevent the rubbing and pinching that occurs. Just a thought but I know the well on my 95 Firebird was deep and I had no problems with the top in 14 years of ownership.

[TiffBiff]

Just got back from the dealership. giving them 1 chance to do me right. Of course they had to look at it to make sure they were going to replace it. They ordered a new top and window regulator. The woman doing the write-up said that they have never heard of the problem, but I have a feeling they have and she was just trying to make me feel like I had no idea what I was talking about. Then the owner came over and called me by name and asked about the car (that changed her tune quick ).

So now I wait for them to get the new parts in and pray that everything will be as good as new (I have had very good luck with them in the past with other vehicles).

[Nutbutt]

Well just got the call from the deal. Yes number 2 replacement top on the way. According to the dealer they could have fixed the damaged anchors above the back side windows on the last install. I have been told otherwise but really don't care. 7 more days till it goes back in:-(

[Xorshaik]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The convertible top, is not seeing nearly as many warranty claims as one would expect from reading this thread - or appropriate, and immediate action would be taken...as has been done in the past with production issues (including the tonneau cover)

Here's my perspective as an engineer on warranty returns. We look at parts that come in by numbers you can count on one hand. Sometimes we find that we have some parts that were out of spec, sometimes I've seen a case where a large number of parts came in because of a bad batch (for example, once I saw a spring that wasn't properly heat treated and was weak, which was traced to a batch covering about 2 months worth of production).

Now, ordinarily I'd tend to agree that reading some complaints on a message board would exagerate the apperance of a problem. But if you look at what's been posted here, it started in April and within the first day 5 people spoke up... I scanned through the first 240 responses and found 24 different posters stating they had problems... That thread is over 850 responses. Some posters reported that they also looked at every car on a dealers lot and they all had wear marks... Fewer were the reports that they hadn't seen issues.

Having followed the thread, it also seemed that some time over the summer that at some point new cars didn't seem to produce the issues.

[95birdible]

Totally agree with you. Something did change during the model year and the change over. Unfortunately for me I think I got to early of a 2012 build. I to was watching this thread with great interest before and after I ordered my car in May. Looks like a fix was in but just wasn't complete enough for us early build 2012's. Time will tell in future months of production. I just checked out a few 2012's today on the lot and out of the 4 verts on the lot 2 had rub marks already. The other 2 didn't look like the top had even been down yet.

[Xorshaik]

Originally Posted by JAustin

No doubt many of you have seen the video of Chevrolet testing the convertible top, cycling it up and down 7500 times. It seems unlikely that they could have done this and NOT noticed any wear, if this is a design flaw. (Or could it be that the wear/damage occurs when the vehicle is DRIVEN with the top down, and therefore not discoverable during stationary testing?) I also wonder if perhaps the cause stems from the inevitable copy-to-copy variations in the manufacture or installation of the tops?

Here are some things to note from the Department 180 video..

7500 cycles probably means 1 life and 22,500 cycles means 3 lives, the test strategy would be to test to 3 lives and if you get that far without issues then statisticly that suggests you should be able to expect minimal issues across production.

But that is for the cycling of the top. Cycling the top isn't the test that creates wear marks, that comes from vibratory inputs..

The department 180 video shows a vehicle on a 4-poster test. (car is supported on 4 posts which individually actuate the wheels up and down, back and forth and so forth simulating all the road inputs into the wheel). This would be closer to how you test for wear marks, but a better test is the supplier's shaker table where the top is mounted in a body which is mounted to a plate which is shaken based on road profile data... These tests run late in the program because they require data from actual vehicles run on test roads.

Going back to the department 180 video, another thing stands out for me... The video shows the Camaro on the 4-post test with no camoflage. OEM's camoflage their vehicles until after they've launched. This doesn't mean that the test wasn't done before launch, I couldn't say if that was the case based on the video, just that the video shows a post-launch vehicle.

I'd also be interested if anyone could watch the video and see if the top folds the same way as your own. I noticed that when you watch department 180 and see the top cycled from the rear, you see that the fabric behind the 1 bow that the fabric folds inwards... Watching other videos I hadn't noticed that before, but then again I haven't seen a video showing the cycling from behind.

I'm not saying it indicates anything, just that it would be interesting to know if the fold patterns are the same as those on what people have been having issues with.

[OrangeVert]

Very interesting, Xorshaik. Also iirc, the "practical" tests where people took cars home to cycle the tops daily would have been done in the winter - when one would not drive with the top down in Michigan. I believe someone may have mentioned that months ago, but thought I'd bring it up given the context of your discussion.

Still a beautiful car that I'm keeping - but would like to know the forensics so I can prevent wear marks going forward.

[95birdible]

Plus testing in the winter will shrink up the top and make it smaller hence it will not rub as much as when the hot summer sun is expanding it and making it bigger. I'll see if I can get a video of mine going down from behind when I get it back from getting the new bonnet. Then I will compare and get back to you.

[whidobie]

If all is true that their might have been adjustments during the production of the car. Why has GM not issued a statement to all owners that they should bring their cars in for inspection for a "possible problem with the top" The dealers will be informed of this with all known issues that have surfaced to that point so they know what to look out for. This can "cleanse" most of the market of the problem. I work for a mfg and anytime there is an issue that effects the consumer-the word goes out immed and our dealers are carefully instructed on how to handle this. What may not have occurred to some of the owners now, may in the future. How many owners own this car and do not go on this site and do not know any of this that is going on. It is time for GM to do the right thing.

[Rafael12104]

A couple of thoughts. First, as a product quality engineer, I can tell you that despite best efforts no amount of testing can completely simulate a real usage model. So, while testing is important and after root cause should be changed to address the issue it is really no longer relevant until we have root cause.

Now... does GM have root cause? It would seem so, as I agree that something has changed in mfg. My vert built in June 11 does not seem to have the issue despite my rigourous inspection and testing of my own. Lol!

I think, it is more likelly that GM does not have a complete solution that does not require a redesign. As such they have not acknowledged the issue overtly because they may not be prepared to provide a complete solution in the form of a recall.

But, there is no question, there is an issue here. And what is more, GM knows the fall out incurred.