Trimming the fat...

[All-Or-Nothing]

Originally Posted by shnomac77

That is a opinion not a fact.....

It's a fact. Camaro is a pig. My 6 series is a pig. New SHO is a pig. Buggatti is a pig. Mustang may soon be a pig although I wish it was lighter now. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Have you ever tried to catch a pig? Especially them baby ones in some open space.

More horsepower is the new weight reduction. The new Camaro is about 1000 pounds heavier than the 1967 Camaro. Mustangs are about 900 pounds heavier than a 1965. Luckily we have gotten more horsepower over the years and better fuel efficiency.

[iPODFAN11]

Originally Posted by All-Or-Nothing

It's a fact. Camaro is a pig. My 6 series is a pig. New SHO is a pig. Buggatti is a pig. Mustang may soon be a pig although I wish it was lighter now. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Have you ever tried to catch a pig? Especially them baby ones in some open space.

More horsepower is the new weight reduction. The new Camaro is about 1000 pounds heavier than the 1967 Camaro. Mustangs are about 900 pounds heavier than a 1965. Luckily we have gotten more horsepower over the years and better fuel efficiency.

It's an OPINION that its a PIG. Its a FACT that the NHSTA, IIHS, and many other higher powers demand cars be safer, that they should have strong roofs in the event of a rollover, doors that barley even twitch in a headon, and those that buckle only slightly in a side impact; that they have strong back ends for rear end collisions, and 6 airbags to cushion the occupants; Its to the point that cars have to be designed with saftey in mind, which can boil down to the fact that it all adds weight. Do you know why the 69 weighed 5-700 lbs less?? Because in 1969 all of those standards were almost not even in existence.

[greenrail]

And the new Camaro (or whichever vehicle you wish to compare a 1967 Camaro with), has significantly better structural rigidity, better safety features, more comfort, better ride quality, better fuel economy, better handling, etc., etc., etc.

While the 1967 Camaro was a very good automobile in it's day, it was (and still is) nowhere near as capable a vehicle on all fronts as today's car.

This isn't 1967 and the Camaro is built to a given price point and to the demands of today's consumer.

That just isn't a valid comparison. Sorry, but I have to disagree.

[nova]

Originally Posted by MrIcky

It is possible, but aluminum is generally about 1/3 as strong ounce per ounce as high strength steel. So you usually have to stamp structures into it- long flat surface require a lot thicker material. It also takes some different welding equipment which may change your upfront expenses.

Not to mention durability issues swapping from steel to aluminum. The wrong alloy or one used in the wrong way or place and you're gonna have a heckuva bad day when a fatigue crack pops up on you. Most of the high strength aluminum alloys can have really bad fatigue issues, even forgetting about the fact a lot of them are not what I'd call cheap...

The people act like any material change is an easy 1:1 swap, have never had to actually design anything in their life. And by design, I don't mean sketch it on a napkin and weld it up in the back yard....

There's no free lunch in engineering design. Every decision carries tradeoffs somewhere. Thats why we get paid the big (yeah right!) bucks to find the optimum solution within the given constraints....

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by All-Or-Nothing

It's a fact. Camaro is a pig. My 6 series is a pig. New SHO is a pig. Buggatti is a pig. Mustang may soon be a pig although I wish it was lighter now. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Have you ever tried to catch a pig? Especially them baby ones in some open space.

More horsepower is the new weight reduction. The new Camaro is about 1000 pounds heavier than the 1967 Camaro. Mustangs are about 900 pounds heavier than a 1965. Luckily we have gotten more horsepower over the years and better fuel efficiency.

Its still a OPINION...
We have different opinions on what a "pig" is.... To me a pig is something that weighs more than its average competitor and handles like a sled. So in my OPINION it is not a PIG.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Originally Posted by iPODFAN11

It's an OPINION that its a PIG. Its a FACT that the NHSTA, IIHS, and many other higher powers demand cars be safer, that they should have strong roofs in the event of a rollover, doors that barley even twitch in a headon, and those that buckle only slightly in a side impact; that they have strong back ends for rear end collisions, and 6 airbags to cushion the occupants; Its to the point that cars have to be designed with saftey in mind, which can boil down to the fact that it all adds weight. Do you know why the 69 weighed 5-700 lbs less?? Because in 1969 all of those standards were almost not even in existence.

EXACTLY. All these standards, while very good, has turned the modern automobile into a pig. Luckily we have a little thing called torque and horsepower.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Originally Posted by shnomac77

Its still a OPINION...
We have different opinions on what a "pig" is.... To me a pig is something that weighs more than its average competitor and handles like a sled. So in my OPINION it is not a PIG.

What part of Iraq you in

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by All-Or-Nothing

What part of Iraq you in

Depends on the day Right now I am in Qatar.

[deletedd]

Originally Posted by MontyCarlo

What people keep trying to tell you is that weight reduction is not the way to improve handling or acceleration on this car. There's simply not that much fat to trim. If you want better handling and acceleration, you need to look at upgrading your suspension and your horsepower.

I understand what people are trying to tell me. A better suspension will make anything handle better, including a John Deere Combine 9000. Sure, I can throw a suspension on it and it's going to help, but it's not going to make the car feel any lighter on its feet.

I understand the concept of horsepower. The horsepower is not the issue. Dollar per dollar, it will cost more to make a 3850 lb car faster than it would to make a 3500 lb car faster. That's not opinion, it's fact.

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by RatedZ

Sure, I can throw a suspension on it and it's going to help, but it's not going to make the car feel any lighter on its feet.

Actually all of the suspension comapanys that are doing work on this car say working this cars suspension does make it feel lighter and livelier. Check out some of the threads about the Pedders set ups. Body roll can be very deceiving....

[deletedd]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

Someone said something along the lines of "I want it to weigh less and get better fuel economy" So do we. It's that CAFE thing.

How to reduce weight......

well........we could use thinner sheetmetal - but then you get the 'oil-can' effect each time you wash or polish it -- so we didn't.


We could use lots of Titanium as we do with a Corvette -- but that raises the price -- so we didn't.


We could get rid of a lot of sound dampening........but that makes for a noisy interior (kinda like the Z06) -- so we didn't.


We could have made the seats lighter and smaller -- but that would make them more uncomfortable on longer trips and it would cost more (in some cases) -- so we didn't.

There are any number of things we could do...........


...............but let's now look at reality, shall we?

If we want this Camaro to succeed - it has to excel in a lot of areas -- refinement (while not losing its heritage of overall performance -- quietness at 70mph -- interiors that allow you to drive it from coast to coast without feeling like you did -- a solid feel to the body and sheetmetal -- absence of 'flutter' at speed -- IRS -- the list is quite lengthy.

RatedZ -- you may not feel that the above is important -- and that is certainly your perogative. However, those looking for reducing weight are in the very small minority......the majority of owners want a Camaro that's more refined. (go read any major Camaro site from 1996-2002 -- and you'll see what I mean.

So -- yes, you could take out weight - but I won't even start to guess what should be removed --

I'd suggest Pedders -- they have a selection of suspension pieces that I believe would take care of the 'feeling' that you get from the Camaro.

One last thing: As you know: we never rest. Remember when the C5 was the 'end-all?' - and then there was the Z06 - and then there was the C6 -- and then there was the C6-Z06 -- and then there was the ZR1.......

.........we are far from finished.................

Thanks for the post, Scott. I do understand that those looking to reduce weight are in the minority, and I understand where you're coming from regarding people wanting more refinement, especially owners of '94-'02 Camaros. I'm amongst that group, but IMO, refinement doesn't always equate to more weight. By "refinement," I would equate that to higher quality interior materials and better packaging. Maybe I missed something along the way, but IMO, the 4th Generation F-Bods had a "sporty" ride. It was taught, but it was far from harsh.

I'm not disagreeing with you that in order for the Camaro's success it needs to excel in many areas. I guess my main question is, why does it have to weigh so much in order to excel in all of these categories? I understand there are safety regulations, but what is weighing so much? I know IRS weighs more than a live-axle, and there's an addition of safety measures that need to be taken, but where is all this additional weight coming from? Is it the structure, the interior? What is it? I'm not trying to be confrontational. I just want to know the specifics.

[deletedd]

Originally Posted by 2SSARME

lol, you get on a camaro forum and call the car a "pig" and expect people to be nice... haha. that's like going to a tea party and saying you love obama.

I'm sorry your ego rests with your car. Sue me. Would you be happier if I called it a land barge?

[Partick]

Originally Posted by RatedZ

I understand what people are trying to tell me. A better suspension will make anything handle better, including a John Deere Combine 9000. Sure, I can throw a suspension on it and it's going to help, but it's not going to make the car feel any lighter on its feet.

I understand the concept of horsepower. The horsepower is not the issue. Dollar per dollar, it will cost more to make a 3850 lb car faster than it would to make a 3500 lb car faster. That's not opinion, it's fact.

You seem to have a preconcieved notion that nothing short of stripping it down will help. Suspension mods would certainly make it feel lighter on its feet. Sounds to me like this thread is exhausted as it's pretty clear there is not a lot of weight savings to be had and you don't believe anything else will work. Sounds like the Camaro is just not the right car for you, I hope you find what you're looking for.

[ShnOmac]

To people who are very passionate about their car's....... insulting said car is like insulting one of their family members. Im just sayin...