Car and Driver's 2009 Lightning Lap Results

[Mosher]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I agree with this, for the most part. My Cobalt can't handle for crap, but it's "tossable", so it feels like it can.

The trouble that the Camaro runs into, specifically, is that they've refined the crap out of it for comfort and road-manners...not a bad thing (I've yet to drive a more comfortable car), but that refinement hides the handling "feel" of the car. So it performs, as evidenced by these races, but it doesn't feel like it does.

And honestly, I'd much happier they actually designed the car to not rupture my spleen when going over a bump.

[JBsC6]

I believe all of GMs products did great. The camaro SS really did take down some pretty impressive cars on that track. Of course so did the Grand Sport and ZR1.

Great article.

Thanks

JB

[Class1E]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I agree with this, for the most part. My Cobalt can't handle for crap, but it's "tossable", so it feels like it can.

The trouble that the Camaro runs into, specifically, is that they've refined the crap out of it for comfort and road-manners...not a bad thing (I've yet to drive a more comfortable car), but that refinement hides the handling "feel" of the car. So it performs, as evidenced by these races, but it doesn't feel like it does.

I read the Camaro part of the article at Wally World today, and that's exactly what it sounded like...except they weren't being complimentary like you were. They complained about hesitation on turn in. Also, LOL at something about "outward visibility of a corn maze."

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Class1E

They complained about hesitation on turn in. Also, LOL at something about "outward visibility of a corn maze."

The first bit would be the feel I was talking about...sorta...and the last bit is bogus, and they can fight me on that one.

[ConceptVBS]

Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69

That should be enough to aggravate the 370Z and Hyundai folks

A few well placed suspension pieces should have it giving the M3 fits.

The Hyundai was an automatic.

[FordDave]

Impressive performance! The course has 2 long straightaways which definitely would give the camaro a chance to show it 'oomph' in the V8. Had it been a non-stop twisty course, the evos and wrxs and m3s would had the advantage, but a long mixed course like this provides a better evaluation i think. Am very impressed to see it beats the 2008 335I time.

Disappointed a bit with the GT performance, and frankly the shelby. Will be interesting to see what the coyote engine does for GT next year, definitely should match power-for-power with the camaro. I'm trying to figure out how they could ship a mustang to the course with wrong tires. My 2010 V6 pony came with pirellis!

[Class1E]

For all the complaining they do about the Camaro's handling, the numbers don't seem to support it being bad at all. The Camaro's lap time at the Nurburgring was within 1 sec (slower or faster, can't remember) of the original CTS-V, a car with similar weight. Granted the LS6 puts out 400 BHP vs the LS3 at 426, but I'm willing to call this an even match since the V had 3.73 gears and better aerodynamics.

It seemed like everyone raved about the handling of the CTS-V; even Jeremy Clarkson thought it handled well, and he hates all American cars.

[Kurt_OH]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

That depends on your defnition of "handling"... Some people consider handling prowess based on the lap times around a technical track, while other people base their decisions on calibrated tests like the slalom, and still others base their opinion on how a car drives in comparison to some 1200 pound go-cart.

All of those make sense. Nice, objective measures. That's how you test/measure things. Like the difference between science and fiction.

Some people just get the most out of what the car has to offer and learn to drive the car the way it drives BEST,

I agree, and I'd expect that most folks who like to go fast in curves, do so.

. . . instead of whining that the car doesn't drive the way THEY think is best.

Some call holding up the performance of competitors as the standard to which the Camaro should exceed, or respecting objective measures and professional analysis, as "whining". Odd.


As for my personal taste, I'm torn between a CPO 911 or M3, possibly Cayman but I'm shying away from the strict 2 seaters, or maybe a new 2SS. I'll check out the new Mustang GT as well when the 5.0 comes out. Certainly Camaro is the value winner, and I wouldn't fear owning it even out of warranty. The Germans I don't think I'd chance if repairs were on my dime.

To what standard to I hold the Camaro? I think it should approach the handling of my wife's BMW 335i. Eh, maybe that's unrealistic, but that's where I'm at with it. It should FOR CERTAIN out-handle a Mustang GT with track pack. If not, then what the hell is the point of the ALLEGEDLY superior IRS?

Sadly, it should also have been, but wasn't, designed to come in somewhere south of 3500 lbs, rather than somewhere south of 4000.

Whatever. It's still on my list. Love that V8 sound and fury. Decent exterior styling. Great value. Affordable to keep/own long term.

[Zeus]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

All of those make sense. Nice, objective measures. That's how you test/measure things. Like the difference between science and fiction.




I agree, and I'd expect that most folks who like to go fast in curves, do so.




Some call holding up the performance of competitors as the standard to which the Camaro should exceed, or respecting objective measures and professional analysis, as "whining". Odd.


As for my personal taste, I'm torn between a CPO 911 or M3, possibly Cayman but I'm shying away from the strict 2 seaters, or maybe a new 2SS. I'll check out the new Mustang GT as well when the 5.0 comes out. Certainly Camaro is the value winner, and I wouldn't fear owning it even out of warranty. The Germans I don't think I'd chance if repairs were on my dime.

To what standard to I hold the Camaro? I think it should approach the handling of my wife's BMW 335i. Eh, maybe that's unrealistic, but that's where I'm at with it. It should FOR CERTAIN out-handle a Mustang GT with track pack. If not, then what the hell is the point of the ALLEGEDLY superior IRS?

Sadly, it should also have been, but wasn't, designed to come in somewhere south of 3500 lbs, rather than somewhere south of 4000.

Whatever. It's still on my list. Love that V8 sound and fury. Decent exterior styling. Great value. Affordable to keep/own long term.

What is a CPO 911?

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

All of those make sense. Nice, objective measures. That's how you test/measure things. Like the difference between science and fiction.




I agree, and I'd expect that most folks who like to go fast in curves, do so.




Some call holding up the performance of competitors as the standard to which the Camaro should exceed, or respecting objective measures and professional analysis, as "whining". Odd.


As for my personal taste, I'm torn between a CPO 911 or M3, possibly Cayman but I'm shying away from the strict 2 seaters, or maybe a new 2SS. I'll check out the new Mustang GT as well when the 5.0 comes out. Certainly Camaro is the value winner, and I wouldn't fear owning it even out of warranty. The Germans I don't think I'd chance if repairs were on my dime.

To what standard to I hold the Camaro? I think it should approach the handling of my wife's BMW 335i. Eh, maybe that's unrealistic, but that's where I'm at with it. It should FOR CERTAIN out-handle a Mustang GT with track pack. If not, then what the hell is the point of the ALLEGEDLY superior IRS?

Sadly, it should also have been, but wasn't, designed to come in somewhere south of 3500 lbs, rather than somewhere south of 4000.

Whatever. It's still on my list. Love that V8 sound and fury. Decent exterior styling. Great value. Affordable to keep/own long term.

Someone on here said it best before: You're comparing a Live-Axle on steroids to a virgin IRS. The Camaro sacrificed some its capabilities for handling in the tracks, to gain in its daily driving handling, such as comfort. In my opinion, considering the 2010 SS has shown it can not lose an actual race, the handling choice they made was the best direction to go in.

However, IRS is superior, unless you specifically make a Live-Axle for taking the turns.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

If not, then what the hell is the point of the ALLEGEDLY superior IRS?

Similar handling characteristics with superior ride-quality and comfort. But...I don't expect the Mustang to outhandle it.

Originally Posted by a_Username

Someone on here said it best before: You're comparing a Live-Axle on steroids to a virgin IRS.

Me!

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

To what standard to I hold the Camaro? I think it should approach the handling of my wife's BMW 335i. Eh, maybe that's unrealistic, but that's where I'm at with it. It should FOR CERTAIN out-handle a Mustang GT with track pack. If not, then what the hell is the point of the ALLEGEDLY superior IRS?

Smoother ride when not at the track and more capable of dealing with imperfect track conditions?

Sadly, it should also have been, but wasn't, designed to come in somewhere south of 3500 lbs, rather than somewhere south of 4000.

Completely unrealistic expectation, particularly given the price point of the Camaro. Even the Mustang GT weighs more than that.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Completely unrealistic expectation, particularly given the price point of the Camaro. Even the Mustang GT weighs more than that.

+1. I go further and challenge someone to go find a car with the Camaro's specs (power/seating/price/comfort/etc) at a significantly lower weight. The best I can find is the M3, and though it performs better, it still costs well over 60 grand.

[Z/28orSs]

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

All of those make sense. Nice, objective measures. That's how you test/measure things. Like the difference between science and fiction.



Sadly, it should also have been, but wasn't, designed to come in somewhere south of 3500 lbs, rather than somewhere south of 4000.

.

thaTS a 4th gens weight we all know we dont want a another f^& up like that again ill take the extra 300 for a much better street car o yeha CPO 911 = CeRtifed Pre-Owned ?? 911?