The 2011+ Mustang Thread

[chain777]

@Dragoneye

I agree with most of your estimates, except the LS3 vs. LSA weights. You're going to pick up more than 40-50 pounds with the supercharger, intercooler, plumbing and coolant. I think your about 50 pounds light here.

[lil_chef]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Umm? Is 1:30.9 > 1:30.35? Anyways, this fast list is a lot different than Leguna Seca. Seems like the Boss won't be ripping up GT-Rs and Z06s at every track as thought in that thread.

the driver this time was a simple journalist, not a professorial driver like MT used.

[sik68]

Well we have 2 conflicting test results:

One test indicates that the Boss is at near "supercar" levels: Audi R8, GT-R, Z06 etc. but was done with a Ford-provided driver and I presume, a very specific setup for Laguna Seca: tire pressures, shock dialing, and maybe some other performance enhancing tweaks. Who knows...I am always a bit more suspicious of cars that are provided for press days.


The other test is a more apples to apples comparison: same conditions, same driver. Shock settings, tire pressures, and other parameters are not idealized. What can't be ignored is that this test shows the Boss didn't even beat its big brother....which actually makes sense. They still need to sell GT500's after all.

So, it's not a supercar. That's ok, it's still awesome.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Umm? Is 1:30.9 > 1:30.35? Anyways, this fast list is a lot different than Leguna Seca. Seems like the Boss won't be ripping up GT-Rs and Z06s at every track as thought in that thread.

oops, my bad. i read it wrong. i guess the c5 z06 is faster than a 6 cylinder mustang by .55 seconds around this track.

Originally Posted by sik68

Well we have 2 conflicting test results:

One test indicates that the Boss is at near "supercar" levels: Audi R8, GT-R, Z06 etc. but was done with a Ford-provided driver and I presume, a very specific setup for Laguna Seca: tire pressures, shock dialing, and maybe some other performance enhancing tweaks. Who knows...I am always a bit more suspicious of cars that are provided for press days..

you and your conspiracy theories!!

Originally Posted by sik68

The other test is a more apples to apples comparison: same conditions, same driver. Shock settings, tire pressures, and other parameters are not idealized. What can't be ignored is that this test shows the Boss didn't even beat its big brother....which actually makes sense. They still need to sell GT500's after all.

So, it's not a supercar. That's ok, it's still awesome.

no its not a supercar but it still beat an audi r8, porsche boxter spyder, corvette grand sport c6,bmw m3, 370z, porsche cayman s, c5 zo6, and a host of other cars!! all without having idealized settings!! from the looks on how the $90,000 z06 carbon ran, i bet the c6 z06 would have ran similar times as the Boss 302 on this track as well!!!

next one in line was the GTR so the Boss is putting itself in good standing on the totem pole. its right there with the big dogs.

[sik68]

I don't see how anyone can use fastestlaps.com times to bench race while keeping a straight face.

If you want to use something, use the VIR Grand course, where C&D has an attempt at consistency.
Lightning Lap

So Evil TW1N, where do you think the Boss will come in on this year's LL? :stirpot:

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Well....here's my math. And I admit, portions of it are fuzzy because we don't have access to all the engineering data, like mass....but then isn't that part of the fun?

Starting with an SS at 3860 lb.

Loose 22 lbs for the wheels, approx 20 lbs from the exhaust, 3 lbs from each front brake rotor, 25lbs thanks to EPS, and 2 lbs from the CF hood insert, brings the car down to 3785. (The wider tires do NOT add any weight. In fact, they take some out...but since I'm being nice...I didn't subtract the ~8 lbs or so they remove from the assembly because that might be part of the lighter wheels the Chevy engineers are quoting. I don't know.) But I digress....3785.

I used the percentage difference between the LSA and LS3 crate engines to calculate the LSA's weight to be approximately 40-50 lbs heavier than the LS3. This includes a liberal addition (on my part) of weight to account for the added coolant and plumbing involved with the supercharger. Oh, and 24 lbs for the beefier transmission...3859.

I figure on about 3 lbs of added weight on each corner for the MSR, 5 lbs per front corner for 6-pot brembos vs 4, and 10 lbs for added composite body aero pieces...3891.

Then...the undercarriage is the biggest "guesstimate". I believe, between the differential, the driveshaft, extra coolers, the twin-disc clutch, axles, and other bolts and pieces...maybe 85 lbs? The bigger, cast-iron diff, and coolers will contribute to most of that...but the rest will be minimal....3976.

Because I'm far from perfect...and because I trust Chevy will manage to surprise us with more magic somewhere, I'll convert that into a range and say I predict the ZL1 will weigh anywhere from 3936 - 4016.

Multiple sources have quoted saying that the "Z28", what we now know to be the ZL1, would weigh approximately 200-300 lbs lighter than the 4222lb CTS-V. This falls in line with my math, and roughly in line with the difference between the CTS coupe and Camaro LT models...

The ready to run weight of the LS3 vs LSA is 415 to 550lbs. The crate weight of the LSA is around 467lbs but that only includes the 1.9L Eaton supercharger unit, the intercooler plumbing, heat exchanger, front-dress, flywheel and pump is not included. Even though the LS9 has a heavier 2.3 liter TVS, it still only weighs 529.9lbs dressed. The ZL1 LSA will be a different configuration using the heavier 2.3 liter so it may push closer to 560lbs.

With the TR6060 MG9, 240-mm dual-mass flywheel is used with a 240-mm twin-disc, the MG9 gearset is a little bit beefier too. Weight gain in the transmission would be about 35lbs, or close to 180lbs total. A dual-mass flywheel itself is around 45lbs when the single is about 21lbs, the twin-disc is said to weigh around 35lbs, about 16lbs heavier than the traditional single. The weight from gearing would be small, but we are already pushing pass 40lbs. The MG9 is no joke, but still lighter than the proposed automatic by about 50lbs. We are looking at a good 180lbs just with the LSA/MG9 alone. That already put us at 4040lbs.

25lbs thanks to EPS

EPS is not lighter than the mechanical power steering. It contains all the moving parts power steering does with the addition of some electrical components. Good news though, it is very close to belt driven power steering as far as weight goes.

The cast iron differential, driveshaft and half shafts will add some serious weight but it is absolutely necessary. I can see an easy 50lbs in drivetrain support... If not, the first person that hooks and twist a halfshaft/driveshaft is not going to be happy.

I still believe that the ZL1 will use the "V" braces the convertible uses or a variation of those, not worth using the strut tower brace if the chassis isn't completely tied together all the way back. I would throw in the tunnel brace and transmission support reinforcement too. The vert put on some 250lbs+ but in addition to the "V" braces, GM also added additional support to the actual structure. Subframe braces are not going to be that heavy but the fact is that they are added weight where the SS had nothing. All bracing support would be another 20lbs and most likely would be aluminum (hopefully), The "V" braces would be the heaviest no doubt and there are two (front/rear).. I think most STB's are about 5-7lbs by themselves.

The IRS links should stay the same, its the MRC and springs that will bring on some weight. If they are coilover designed, the weight would be minimal, maybe 30lbs all the way around including the MRC system itself. I am still unsure if the front suspension needs to be double wishbone or if it can be done with the current Macpherson setup. Wishbone would add some weight as well but it looks that they will keep the.. Sway bars could see some weight as well...

The brakes are the same in the rear as the SS's so NO weight loss there, the front disc would see a slight increase. Even though the fronts are 2-piece, they are a half inch bigger and now have 6 pot's in the front... maybe a 10lb increase with fluid.

Exterior and interior could see 20lbs or so in bells and whistle weight... That leaves the exhaust (I can see it being 20lbs lighter) and wheels/tires. If the wheels are lighter by 5.5lbs a piece, that weight loss could be mitigated by the extra rubber. The current Goodyear Supercars are not the lightest tire out there.. cheap.. but not light..

GM could reduce the gas tank to a 16 gallon but that is getting extreme. When they came forward and said "we lost 22lbs in the wheels", too me that says.. That is the major chunk we saved, I am still expecting the exhaust to be very close to the SS's, and most of the weight savings coming from the mufflers (if it is not dual chambered).

I know it was previously stated that the "Z28" now ZL1 was suppose to be 200-300lbs lighter... It was also stated that the "Z28" nameplate would only be bestowed on a car that was truly worthy of the name. To me, that means that somewhere in mid-development... It was deemed impossible to achieve said weight.. and shortly after, the name was changed because this is not worthy of the "Z28" nameplate. Now with that outta the way, weight savings isn't as big of an issue.

Edit: and when GM goes as far to insert carbon fiber into the middle of an aluminum hood... is the 2lbs worth the cost?

[thePill]

The suspension is new

I need to clarify that statement, this will not be the Control Blade IRS, just new components of the Live Rear...

[ffrcobra_65]

maybe we will all get blown away and the new ZL1 will come in at no more than 3800 lbs. This wait is intense!

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by sik68

I don't see how anyone can use fastestlaps.com times to bench race while keeping a straight face.

If you want to use something, use the VIR Grand course, where C&D has an attempt at consistency.
Lightning Lap

So Evil TW1N, where do you think the Boss will come in on this year's LL? :stirpot:

somewhere close to the 3 minute mark since the track is much larger and favors the higher hp cars more than all out handling. the boss has left its foot print in the butts of a lot of cars already. Its not the fastest of the fastest cars but you cant expect that at the 40k level. even if it only "hangs" with cars costing 50% more its still a big milestone.

[sik68]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

Its not the fastest of the fastest cars but you cant expect that at the 40k level. even if it only "hangs" with cars costing 50% more its still a big milestone.

Which is why I want one.

[Black5thgen]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

oops, my bad. i read it wrong. i guess the c5 z06 is faster than a 6 cylinder mustang by .55 seconds around this track.

Lol, I would love to see you test that theory.

[THE EVIL TW1N]

Originally Posted by Black5thgen

Lol, I would love to see you test that theory.

empirical data is right there in front of your face!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

The ready to run weight of the LS3 vs LSA is 415 to 550lbs. The crate weight of the LSA is around 467lbs but that only includes the 1.9L Eaton supercharger unit, the intercooler plumbing, heat exchanger, front-dress, flywheel and pump is not included. Even though the LS9 has a heavier 2.3 liter TVS, it still only weighs 529.9lbs dressed. The ZL1 LSA will be a different configuration using the heavier 2.3 liter so it may push closer to 560lbs.
No 2.3L on the ZL1, and I used what weights I could find from the same source. For some reason, GM doesn't publish the weight of the LSA on their website...so like I said, that was the weak link in the calculation, but I erred on the side of caution. May I ask where you've acquired the 550lb number?

EPS is not lighter than the mechanical power steering. It contains all the moving parts power steering does with the addition of some electrical components. Good news though, it is very close to belt driven power steering as far as weight goes.
I'm not certain we're thinking of the same type of system. You seem to be referring to a "hybrid" electric-hydraulic power steering system, where I'm 99.9% sure the ZL1's is a full-electric assist. The entire hydraulic system is replaced with a small motor used to assist steering effort. It removes the traditional power steering pump altogether and all of the fluid that goes with it. I completely guessed on the number, but it does save weight in addition to better fuel economy.

I still believe that the ZL1 will use the "V" braces the convertible uses or a variation of those, not worth using the strut tower brace if the chassis isn't completely tied together all the way back. I would throw in the tunnel brace and transmission support reinforcement too. The vert put on some 250lbs+ but in addition to the "V" braces, GM also added additional support to the actual structure. Subframe braces are not going to be that heavy but the fact is that they are added weight where the SS had nothing. All bracing support would be another 20lbs and most likely would be aluminum (hopefully), The "V" braces would be the heaviest no doubt and there are two (front/rear).. I think most STB's are about 5-7lbs by themselves.
I don't expect the V-braces or extra convertible bracing at ALL. This chassis was engineered from the beginning to handle huge power...that was also its biggest disadvantage when looking at the lower-power models, because they had to carry around that literally 'heavy' engineering. The coupe doesn't need a single piece of bracing anywhere to handle this power. I admit, the strut-tower brace eludes me...and I wonder if that may be more for show than go, but the added rigidity will help aid in suspension calibration.

The brakes are the same in the rear as the SS's so NO weight loss there, the front disc would see a slight increase. Even though the fronts are 2-piece, they are a half inch bigger and now have 6 pot's in the front... maybe a 10lb increase with fluid.
Rotors should be a tad lighter based on my research, not heavier...but looking back, 3lbs less per rotor probably not realistic.

Exterior and interior could see 20lbs or so in bells and whistle weight... That leaves the exhaust (I can see it being 20lbs lighter) and wheels/tires. If the wheels are lighter by 5.5lbs a piece, that weight loss could be mitigated by the extra rubber. The current Goodyear Supercars are not the lightest tire out there.. cheap.. but not light..
For the umpteenth time...ZL1 tires are ligher than OE. Even at 285f and 305r. Check TireRack specs...or any specs...if you don't believe me.

Nevertheless...I don't know if that reduction is included with the 22lb number that's been given to us....or separate...

GM could reduce the gas tank to a 16 gallon but that is getting extreme. When they came forward and said "we lost 22lbs in the wheels", too me that says.. That is the major chunk we saved, I am still expecting the exhaust to be very close to the SS's, and most of the weight savings coming from the mufflers (if it is not dual chambered).
With lower fuel economy, reducing the size of the tank to save 15 lbs would be ridiculous...

I know it was previously stated that the "Z28" now ZL1 was suppose to be 200-300lbs lighter... It was also stated that the "Z28" nameplate would only be bestowed on a car that was truly worthy of the name. To me, that means that somewhere in mid-development... It was deemed impossible to achieve said weight.. and shortly after, the name was changed because this is not worthy of the "Z28" nameplate. Now with that outta the way, weight savings isn't as big of an issue.
Well...you'd be assuming things again...and some thing incorrectly...


Edit: and when GM goes as far to insert carbon fiber into the middle of an aluminum hood... is the 2lbs worth the cost?

To be able to say "we used Carbon Fiber on the ZL1 versus the GT500's..."...definitely!! A relatively flat piece of CF is so easy to make...the cost is likely higher to cut a hole in the hood than to purchase the insert.

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

maybe we will all get blown away and the new ZL1 will come in at no more than 3800 lbs. This wait is intense!

That.....I doubt.

[radz28]

I WISH they'd stick a 2300 on there