How much will the ZL1 weigh?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by porcupinekiller

That's true GM's goal was to outperform the GT500. But they have been using a 2011 GT500 as a benchmark. By the time the 2012 ZL1 hits the streets the 2013 MY GT500(or SVT replacement) will be ready to hit the streets with upgrades over the 2011/12 GT500. A TVS and stickier tires on the 2013 SVT car could make for some interesting comparisons against the 2012/13 ZL1. Don't count the GT500 out just yet.
At any rate get 'em while you can. I don't see these high horsepower monster muscle cars being produced for that much longer.

I wouldn't be so sure. They might have, but I would put my money on a 2009 or 2010 GT500 as well as the CTS-V. But it doesn't really matter what the picked as their bench mark. benchmarking is simply "they're here, where do we want to be?". You can pick a spot ahead of or behind that benchmark. But the spot you pick becomes your goal, for everything from performance stats to build quality to noise, vibration, and harshness.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by porcupinekiller

That's true GM's goal was to outperform the GT500. But they have been using a 2011 GT500 as a benchmark. By the time the 2012 ZL1 hits the streets the 2013 MY GT500(or SVT replacement) will be ready to hit the streets with upgrades over the 2011/12 GT500. A TVS and stickier tires on the 2013 SVT car could make for some interesting comparisons against the 2012/13 ZL1. Don't count the GT500 out just yet.
At any rate get 'em while you can. I don't see these high horsepower monster muscle cars being produced for that much longer.

Ford's test mule was out in October, some say it might be a new SVO Eco-6 some say it is the Roadrunner Twin Turbo 5.0. There are alot of clues that this is a V8 but you never know... Notice the 9000rpm tach, the Shelby wheels, the 255's, the A-pillar boost gauge and the Brembo's. A TT 5.0 would lose another 100lbs with the TT 5.0/Getrag combo... I'm all for a TT 5.0 with Ford Racing suspension kit...

http://blogs.insideline.com/straight...ustang-gt.html

It looks dropped too, could be the Ford Racing catalog parts Shelby used on the GT350.. God I hope so..

Here is the TT'd 5.0 from underneath, using two 12lb Exile Turbos that makes 550 hp and 580 lb-ft of torque at the wheels on a stock Coyote... W/ CATs your looking at 580hp/610tq at the crank. MPG's should be the same as the GT500s, maybe better with DI, but not much...


I have a feeling that GM knows both of Fords options right now, the TVS 5.4 and the TT 5.0. I'm sure they have a plan laid out for both set-ups...

Edit: For the record though, I agree with the benchmarking theory, so they no doubt have to aim very high...

[thePill]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Pill, I suggest you take the 4 cast 20s off YOUR Camaro and weigh 'em...and you'll come up with a fair bit more than 120 lbs....while it is NOT out of the realm of possibility to mass-produce forged 20s of equal size and save close to 40 lbs total. Now give back a lil for the bigger tires, and 22 lbs NET savings is a reality...

BTW, I saw some lovely 1-pce 19 X 13s @ SEMA that even you could custom-order, made in CA. (not China), that weighed 18 lbs. Street legal, too... PM me and I'll hook you up...

I would love to run 13 wides but it is not required to run a 275 or 285 in all four corners. It is not a good idea to stagger wheel sizes from front to back due to the oversteer that comes from doing that. I love the looks of 19's but for road racing, 19's are a no go and is sometimes hard to find a class that will allow them. I have my eye on the BBS 18x10 Boss 302R (kinda expensive) and the Enkei PF01 18x9.5... But wheels come later, Steeda had a sale this week and Frank Stoddard is sending me my quote for Steeda Stage 3, Pro Action Shocks and Struts, Sport springs 1"/1.25" drop, Billet upper/lower, front and rears. I am also being quoted for the coilovers but still not sure.

Forged is great, but I will use a casted and flow formed like the Enkei's are if the weight is right, and at $400 dollars for 19.9lbs.. It sounds good to me..

But thank you for the offer...

Edit: My goal is to lose well over 10lbs per wheel, Enkei 18x9.5 PF01's matched to a Hoosier 275/35/18 R6 has me at 43lbs per wheel/tire, about 13lbs less than stock (56lbs with 19x9 track pack and 255/40/19's)

Edit 2: Does Hoosier/Nitto make a 45 profile on a 275?.. Looks like Nitto makes a light 275/40/18 and thats where I want to be..

[thePill]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Pill, I suggest you take the 4 cast 20s off YOUR Camaro and weigh 'em...and you'll come up with a fair bit more than 120 lbs....while it is NOT out of the realm of possibility to mass-produce forged 20s of equal size and save close to 40 lbs total. Now give back a lil for the bigger tires, and 22 lbs NET savings is a reality...

BTW, I saw some lovely 1-pce 19 X 13s @ SEMA that even you could custom-order, made in CA. (not China), that weighed 18 lbs. Street legal, too... PM me and I'll hook you up...

The stock 245/45/20s weigh 32lbs each and the stock 275/40/20s weighs 35lbs (as listed on tire rack). Wheel weights are 30.3 front and 32lbs rear. Total of 62.3 & 67 wheel and tire together. The 285/35/20s F1s list for 29lbs and the 305/35/20 list for 33lbs. That is a 10lb saving right there in just tires alone leaving 3lbs that need to be reduced from the stock SS wheel after forging to achieve a 22lb weight loss. Being that the ZL1 wheels are just forged SS wheels with the spoke centers milled out, that seems more realistic.. Just as long as the F2s do not take on any weight so its not necessarily the wheels doing the saving, its the 35 profile tires too.

Edit: The only other place I can see weight savings is the exhaust, I am collecting numbers right now but don't see much of a loss. Maybe 30lbs or so... Some say the stock exhaust on an SS weighs only 80lbs (kinda hard to believe). Kooks after market exhaust from the headers back weigh 75lbs...

[THE EVIL TW1N]

[rgrizzard]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Curb Weight:

CTS 3.6 = 3860
CTS-V = 4220, or 360 more

Camaro 2LT = 3741
Camaro ZL1 = 4101?

As an aside, a wet-sump LS7 (similar to the SEMA '08 COPO Camaro), with suitably upgraded driveline and the forged 20s, could have come in @ 1SS weight: under 3900 lbs. without all the "gingerbread".

Is this version being saved for Z/28 rebirth?

I could only hope so!!!

[rgrizzard]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I'm confident you're fears are unfounded.

Let's suppose it were heavier than the GT500 -- it's still got wider, presumably stickier tires, slightly more power (at this point), and a healthy amount more torque. It's got a truly industry leader suspension system to handle itself around a track, and lightweight wheels/rotors to reduce rotating mass which helps accelerate and react to road-surface changes. This is in addition to a lower center of gravity and new, more aerodynamic (& downforce-inducing) bodywork.

The weight card has been WAY overplayed these past couple of years. There are sooooooooooo many other factors that can make 200, even 400 lbs a useless number on paper. Can the lighter car handle better? Yes. WILL it? It all depends what's attached to it.

3700lbs is unrealistic...they're adding a supercharger to make competitive power, and adding weight in drivetrain and suspension to handle it. To completely offset that, they've got to take nearly 200 lbs or more out of the car....and even then, you're still looking at the SS's 3850 before they started adding things.

It'll be lighter than the CTS-V...there's no doubt about that. The V6 Camaro has a clean 200 lbs weight advantage on the V6 CTS...and they've said multiple times that mass reduction was a huge concern of theirs as they put the ZL1 together...however, if weight were easily and cost-effectively removed, it would have been done on the SS and LTs. The fact is it isn't...you can't wave a magic wand and make steel lighter...and they can't remove every option and every convenience from the car because then either it doesn't pass federal standards, or it won't sell...and then what's the point?

Safety regulations and consumer demands have gotten to a point where to have a truly "lightweight" car anymore you need to pay big $$$ to get it. And Camaro is not a car who's audience wants to spend big $$$. It's an affordable performance coupe. Not a Corvette.

Thats a good arguement for a road course but for a standing quarter mile weight is a big key...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by rgrizzard

Thats a good arguement for a road course but for a standing quarter mile weight is a big key...

A fair point.....they say 100lbs is roughly equivilant to .1 seconds at the drag strip....If the car only gains 200 lbs or less.....how many seconds is wide, sticky tires, 120 more hp, reduced-weight rotating mass, vastly improved aero and agressive gearing worth?

[LOWDOWN]

Power-to-weight, whether road racing or drag racing, is the key stat...

ZL1 @ 4100 (arguably) with 556+ hp = 7.37 lb/hp, or perhaps better

1SS @ 3850 (easy on the options) with 426 hp = 9.04

As to the aero, with the higher rear spoiler and "bumpy" hood trimmed out by a standard splitter, I suspect the cd is not "vastly improved", but it WILL be more stable at greater speeds...

[midnighter]

The ZL1 will weigh more than a Cruze, but less than a Silverado.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

A fair point.....they say 100lbs is roughly equivilant to .1 seconds at the drag strip....If the car only gains 200 lbs or less.....how many seconds is wide, sticky tires, 120 more hp, reduced-weight rotating mass, vastly improved aero and agressive gearing worth?

Its a difficult equation when comparing the ZL1 to the SS, I would split hairs between the CTS-V and the ZL1 since it would give you a more accurate calculation. I'm firm with a 4110lb curb weight. I say that because I have compared weight gains from CTS V6/LT V6 to the LSA equipped big brothers, added the weight that would be gained to an SS by using proposed ZL1 parts and have subtracted weight savings from the ZL1's attemps from the CTS-V and have consistantly arrived at a spread of 4105-4150lbs. I would have picked the average but the exhaust savings was calculated from a best case senario.

The CTS-V has far less rotating mass in the 19 inch forged aluminum wheels. the 245/40/19's (I'm getting mixed info between 245's and 255's. The 255's weigh 25lbs) in the front only weigh 24lbs and the 285/35/19s in the rear weigh in at 26lbs. That is 20lbs less than the ZL1 in tires alone, the 19 inch wheels could save the CTS-V another 8-10lbs all around...

There is a false belief that the ZL1 uses the CTS's brakes, this is only partially true. The calipers look to be the same in both models but the rotors on the CTS are 15" front and 14.7" rear where as the ZL1 uses the 14.6" front/14.4" rear, the rear disc look to be the SS's. The variation of weights between the 4 separate rotors with the 6 and 4 piston calipers will be small, however, it would all depend in thickness as well. I believe the SS's front rotors were 1.26" thick and the stock rear rotors (same as the ZL1) are 1.1". Even with the two piece front rotors, I believe that the increased diameter and larger calipers front and rear (CTS-V's 15" disc are 1.26" thick as well) will see a increase over stock SS's setup but remain slightly lighter than the CTS-V's Brembo's. You can see the anticipation of a 4100lb ZL1 in the brake setup.

Large, expensive and heavy disc using 6/4 piston calipers are rarely needed if the vehicle were to weigh below 4100lbs. Since all braking systems are rated for Gross Vehicle Weight (GVWR) it is safe to bet that using the CTS's rating of 5250lbs (with 1000lbs cargo) will show the ZL1 pretty close to the CTS-V with less cargo capacity (about 900lbs).

SS's 3850lb curb weight + 900lbs cargo= 4750lb GVWR,
ZL1's 4110lb curb weight + 900lbs cargo= 5010lb GVWR

A 240lb difference seems reasonable for the smaller brakes used on the ZL1 over the CTS-V. Any more weight and GM would have to use the 15"/14.7" set up over the 14.6"/14.4"....

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

A fair point.....they say 100lbs is roughly equivilant to .1 seconds at the drag strip....If the car only gains 200 lbs or less.....how many seconds is wide, sticky tires, 120 more hp, reduced-weight rotating mass, vastly improved aero and agressive gearing worth?

Lets work backwards from the manual CTS-V instead of working up from the SS. To many elements to factor in to calculate performance from SS>ZL1 as you mentioned above. The CTS has the same engine, transmission, 3.73s, similar curb weight and almost exactly the same drag. Tire width could have diminishing returns if a 305 isn't needed, watching the CTS-V launch, it does not blow the tires off like a GT500 does. The CTS-V also has a lighter rear weight balance at 54/46% where the ZL1 is suppose to have a 52/48% balance. If the Caddy isn't burning the tires off with less rear weight balance, using a 285/35/19, why would GM feel the need to add a 305 and increase tread by almost 2 inches? If the CTS didn't have a traction problem, then a 305 would begin to diminish any healthy returns. Now the Caddy has less rotating mass on a shorter diameter tire (And the PS2 is a better tire I must say) and producing results.

Weight is going to be pretty close and 0.1 tenth of a second is a slim margin. Every pound of rotating mass deducted is the equivalent of 8lbs of static mass, with 60% of that being the elimination of paracitic loss and the other being just plain weight reduction. Seeing that the wheel/tire combo of the CTS-V is much lower and by about 28lbs, thats literally 224lbs or 0.2 tenths improvement. That would make the CTS-V perform as if it were a 4000lb car and most people will tell you, it feels lighter than that in the throttle. If the CTS-V could best a 12.2 in manual form, the ZL1, with a 150lb curb weight advantage, would still be on the heels of the Caddy. If the ZL1 isn't having traction issues with a 285, it should use a 285...

3.73's with 19's or 20's? Both are 35 profiles, so tire diameter is going to be close to 28 inches on the ZL1 and well into 26 inch for the 19's.. Advantage? CTS-V...

Speculation Specifications for the ZL1

556hp@6100rpm
555ft lbs@4000
Curb Weight: 4110 lbs (est)
GVWR: 5000 lbs (est)
0-60: 4.2
1/4 mile 12.3@117mph
60-0: 106 ft
Slalom: 69mph
Skidpad: 0.96g
MSRP: $53,995

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

As to the aero, with the higher rear spoiler and "bumpy" hood trimmed out by a standard splitter, I suspect the cd is not "vastly improved", but it WILL be more stable at greater speeds...

Well...that's what I meant. This car is skinned for performance.

On a related note, the downforce won't kick in so much at hwy speeds...but all the work to the car's aerodynamics (especially the sides and front) should allow the car to be more "slippery" at those 'low' speeds.

Originally Posted by thePill

Speculation Specifications for the ZL1

556hp@6100rpm
555ft lbs@4000
Curb Weight: 4110 lbs (est)
GVWR: 5000 lbs (est)
0-60: 4.2
1/4 mile 12.3@117mph
60-0: 106 ft
Slalom: 69mph
Skidpad: 0.96g
MSRP: $53,995

You'll forgive me for not taking all your logic point-by-point....I've got comments...just no time to literally "re-search" solid numbers and post them all...:(

But...I have done it before (stupid me for not saving the math somewhere)...and here's my prediction...not that this is the thread's topic...but I at least have time to react to that:

Curb Weight: 3950-4025
0-60: 3.8sec
1/4 mile: 12.1 sec@11x mph
60-0: 102ft
Slalom: 71+mph
Skidpad: .97+G
Top Speed: 190+mph


And a base price of $49,xxx


Again...there is logic behind most of that...some is a 'hunch'....and all of it is conjecture.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Well...that's what I meant. This car is skinned for performance.

On a related note, the downforce won't kick in so much at hwy speeds...but all the work to the car's aerodynamics (especially the sides and front) should allow the car to be more "slippery" at those 'low' speeds.


You'll forgive me for not taking all your logic point-by-point....I've got comments...just no time to literally "re-search" solid numbers and post them all...:(

But...I have done it before (stupid me for not saving the math somewhere)...and here's my prediction...not that this is the thread's topic...but I at least have time to react to that:

Curb Weight: 3950-4025
0-60: 3.8sec
1/4 mile: 12.1 sec@11x mph
60-0: 102ft
Slalom: 71+mph
Skidpad: .97+G
Top Speed: 190+mph


And a base price of $49,xxx


Again...there is logic behind most of that...some is a 'hunch'....and all of it is conjecture.

Thats starting to push into the HPE550's performance bracket. The HPE550 went through extensive weight reduction as in things that GM can't do. At 3860lbs, making 559hp/525tq at the wheels. It manages a 12 flat @ 120mph, it also has a 3.9 0-60 and it uses 315/30/20s... It failed on the g's @ 0.90 and 68mph slalom.

The HPE550 is a stripper, reducing 300lbs right off the bat...