CAFE What's it doing to the industry?

[GTAHVIT]

I read this post in another thread. It got me thinking.

Originally Posted by joes3rdcamaro82/91/2010

How is Dodge getting away with their horrible gas sucking Challenger? Surley GM can make a Z28 that can get the same or better gas milage! Don't you guys think?

I struggle with this also. No one seems to really know how CAFE will "score" (for lack of a better word) the manufacturers. I guess what I don't understand is why can't they make a special edition ZL1 or Z28 for a couple years? The requirement isn't until 2020. I don't understand why they have to cancel programs now... I'm sure there is a reason. I just don't know enough about CAFE to see it.

So please post away. This is intended to be a free for all on CAFE. Good, bad, strategies, whatever.

BTW. I'm not a fan.

[HOTCIVIC]

Here's a good read on CAFE by a member on another Camaro site:

Question:

so i dont exactly get these cafe ratings... its manditory that they meet them, or they have to pay a gas guzzler tax if they dont?

Answer:

Originally Posted by guionM

It's the combined corperate average mpg of all vehicles a car company sells.

Each vehicle is tested and rated at a certain mpg rating. This number is NOT any of the numbers on your window sticker from the EPA. This is a number by a different agency that is actually on the pretty high side as far as fuel economy ratings go.

The other side of the equasion is how many vehicles are sold. In a company that sells, say, a million vehicles per year, a car that sells at a rate of 200,000 per year is going to have 10 times the impact on the company's CAFE rating than a vehicle in the same company that sells 20,000.

In a company like General Motors that sold 3.87 million vehicles last year, the 8,700 Corvette Z06s sold had pretty much no impact on GM's CAFE numbers, while the Impala that sold at least 250,000 models last year is going to impact GM's CAFE like a SOB.

The "Gas Guzzler Tax" is a totally different animal with nothing to do with CAFE. The "Guzzler Tax" is a tax applied to any car (trucks are exempt) that gets a combined EPA fuel economy below 22.5 mpg combined. American made cars that fall into that void are cars like SRT8-anything from Chrysler, Vipers, the now defunct Ford GT, the Shelby GT 500 and it's mega-powered spinoffs. These vehicles get hit with the tax, yet, these vehicles also sell in such miniscule numbers that they have virturally zero impact on CAFE standards.

Light trucks and SUVs don't pay a Gas Guzzler's tax, but their fuel economy (or lack thereof) will have a humongous impact on fuel economy since that is well more than half of what US automakers sell domestically.... and hence, the panic. Trucks had their own CAFE numbers to meet, but the new regs combine both cars and trucks together when figuring out future CAFE regs.

In 2007, all vehicles sold in the US averaged just under 21 mpg (cars alone were nearly 30!). If the issue was moving only cars to 40 mpg in 12 years, that would be no problem (despite how much resistance you see). But throw trucks in the mix, and it becomes a major problem.

It's easy to blame legislators because they are a collective, faceless organization. But the real problem is that 99.9% of the public don't understand anything about automobiles more than getting in and driving... and that goes for the officials we vote for as well. This goes for BOTH political parties and BOTH ends of the political spectrum (only a moron would overlook that).

But the fact is that we do have an oil addiction that essentially makes us borrow money from China to pay for oil we get from places that either don't like us or are unstable and are 1 coup away from turning against us. The obvious way around CAFE that would take the pressure off of car manufacturers is a gas tax that keeps gasoline at $4 or even $5 per gallon (perhaps using the money to pay off our catostrophic debt to China and other countries that's funding us). But that idea is essentially political suicide. The only other way is through CAFE, and IMO, it's the worst choice of the necessary evils.

The hawks are for it because less imported oil increases our security (as long as oil companies get more money to make up the loss via higher prices). Treehuggers love it because they think it means less pollution. Legislatures and Congress love it because it's an easy way to appeal to their own constituents on both sides.

This was probably a $50 answer to a $1 question, so, sorry if I went on a rampage.

I didn't understand CAFE all that well but he did a good job explaining it in my opinion.

[GTAHVIT]

Nice find.

[HOTCIVIC]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

Nice find.

Thank you sir.

I don't know how we can get around CAFE. He's right that the majority of the population doesn't know anything about cars other than getting in and driving, and most aren't performance enthusiasts so not that many people care if there are Z28s or Z06s or GT500s or Challenger SRT8s available for sale. People like us make up a small percentage of the population so it seems impossible to change anything about CAFE. :(

[Jamestwilliams]

It's not the Cafe regulations that are bad (i don't agree with them). It's the exemption companies like Ferrari and Lamborghini get, allowing the rich to be exempt from Cafe regulations. It's a completely undemocratic law more akin to what you would find in a third world dictatorship. Foreign oil really, the largest supplier of oil to the US is Canada, second is Mexico then third is Saudi Arabia. Which of those countries is in danger of a coupe?

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by HOTCIVIC

Thank you sir.

I don't know how we can get around CAFE. He's right that the majority of the population doesn't know anything about cars other than getting in and driving, and most aren't performance enthusiasts so not that many people care if there are Z28s or Z06s or GT500s or Challenger SRT8s available for sale. People like us make up a small percentage of the population so it seems impossible to change anything about CAFE. :(

I'm just gonna ignore the last part of this post......... If I ignore it, it isn't true...

[Punk_rider]

Stupid question: if the car is manufactured outside of the US, does the standard still apply? I mean, there's no way this standard would apply to Ferrari ...

[The_Blur]

It isn't about getting around CAFE. The CAFE problem is in the process of solving itself. People are buying compacts instead of SUVs, meaning that companies that sell compacts can have inefficient trucks on their list. If GM sells more Cobalts, then the Silverado can have low fuel efficiency because the Cobalt will bring up the average. People moving from SUVs to compacts are actually improving GM's ratings.

Obviously, some of those customers move to other brands for their cars. All GM needs to do is push compacts. That is already happening, and cars like the G5, Cobalt, and Ion—yes, all Delta cars—are doing very well.

It is very understandable that people panic about CAFE. The idea of losing powerful V8s is terrifying for us, the car enthusiasts; however, we have to remember that all companies that produce SUVs are losing sales, and they are losing those sales to compacts or people who are just keeping their cars for longer. GM produces great compacts that sell very well, so I am not worried. We will get our pony cars with thanks to smaller displacement cars like the Delta platform.

[HOTCIVIC]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

It isn't about getting around CAFE. The CAFE problem is in the process of solving itself. People are buying compacts instead of SUVs, meaning that companies that sell compacts can have inefficient trucks on their list. If GM sells more Cobalts, then the Silverado can have low fuel efficiency because the Cobalt will bring up the average. People moving from SUVs to compacts are actually improving GM's ratings.

Obviously, some of those customers move to other brands for their cars. All GM needs to do is push compacts. That is already happening, and cars like the G5, Cobalt, and Ion—yes, all Delta cars—are doing very well.

It is very understandable that people panic about CAFE. The idea of losing powerful V8s is terrifying for us, the car enthusiasts; however, we have to remember that all companies that produce SUVs are losing sales, and they are losing those sales to compacts or people who are just keeping their cars for longer. GM produces great compacts that sell very well, so I am not worried. We will get our pony cars with thanks to smaller displacement cars like the Delta platform.

Good post.

[The_Stache]

Originally Posted by Punk_rider

Stupid question: if the car is manufactured outside of the US, does the standard still apply? I mean, there's no way this standard would apply to Ferrari ...

Yes it does, BUT the hitch is a number (i think its 20,000). If you sell less than that quantity in TOTAL company sales in the USA then you are exempt from CAFE.

Ferrari generally only makes about about that many cars for the world in total a year... so yea they qualify for the exemption... Porsche on the other hand is completely screwed and from the rumors I've heard is contemplating pulling out the US market COMPLETELY...

[Wm Holden]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

I read this post in another thread. It got me thinking.



I struggle with this also. No one seems to really know how CAFE will "score" (for lack of a better word) the manufacturers. I guess what I don't understand is why can't they make a special edition ZL1 or Z28 for a couple years? The requirement isn't until 2020. I don't understand why they have to cancel programs now... I'm sure there is a reason. I just don't know enough about CAFE to see it.

So please post away. This is intended to be a free for all on CAFE. Good, bad, strategies, whatever.

BTW. I'm not a fan.

GM was the largest company in the world...now they are ninth....that's what CAFE has done for you.

[Vash]

Camaro 6, your performance electric vehicle.

Tired of that old volt? Prius got you down and slow?

Step up to the 2016 Camaro 6. 0-60 sub 4 seconds (electric motor).


Anyway .. that will probably happen.

[radz28]

WOW, there's a lot of useful information in this thread. Although it explains a lot of what is going on, it doesn't make me feel any better.

Thanks for all the information guys.

[Punk_rider]

Originally Posted by diarmadhi

Yes it does, BUT the hitch is a number (i think its 20,000). If you sell less than that quantity in TOTAL company sales in the USA then you are exempt from CAFE.

Ferrari generally only makes about about that many cars for the world in total a year... so yea they qualify for the exemption... Porsche on the other hand is completely screwed and from the rumors I've heard is contemplating pulling out the US market COMPLETELY...

HERE IS THE SOLUTION! Remove the bowtie, make "Z28" a specific branch of GM and make a limited edition! ... Ok, price will follow though ...

We the heck had the original idea of this stupid regulation?

Other solution: make a bunch of electric cars, no oil consumed, then you can make hipo cars.

damn, greens are killing the car industry ... how many people are gonna loose their jobs because of that?