Constructive criticism, not HATE

[Cubanaso]

OK, so I've seen more than enough "don't complain, silly complaints, etc" threads so I thought I'd bring up this important point.

First, I agree in away that I'm glad we have this beast again and GM knocked it out of the park in terms of looks (the rest is not fully clear, but I think they mostly probably have done a good job also).

No Z28 nameplate, yeah...strange but not the end of the world.

No individual option list, yeah...a bit disappointing but everyone does that.

Not enough HP, this one I have no clue...422HP not enough? 300HP V6 not enough?

Interior style, sure...but it's growing on me and quality "appears" very high

Weight, oh...you know I'm the first to ring that BELL!!!

So, I do agree that some of this stuff is a little petty. I know they all have their points but overall it's minor grapes. If anything, GM...with the above, be glad it's petty because then that means most of the majors are not real issues. BUT, there is a universal problem that most of us have and that's weight.

NOT, that there isn't reasoning behind it (I blame, as Dragon said, mainly that it's a global 4 door platform) but I honestly think this is GM's biggest mistake with the car. It's a mistake that makes it fuel economy less than what it can be and it's HP not as efficiently used.

BUT, now to the point of my ramblings. (lol)

Some take this as complainers, not real fans, haters, etc etc etc but that's missing the point and frankly some of these people that want to shut us up are nothing but fan boys or yes men. Most, are just passionate about the car and don't like to hear someone saying bad things about it.

But, that's missing the reality of it all. If we didn't care about the Camaro, we would just blurb out some misguided and misinformed nonsense followed with GM sucks comments.

People, this is constructive criticism NOT HATE! GM will be better served by honest criticism than blind praise. GM is not in a stage where they can screw up on ANY car and most of what they have done lately is out of the park (minus the automatic only G8 GT STUPID STUPID STUPID mistake, lost me as a customer on that one).

So I know mostly there is honest debate here, actually this is the friendliest forum I've been yet, but we should lay off each other...the blind prise folks and the constant complaining folks (I'm in the middle some place, lol, while with weight I'm a big complainer) and let us vent one way or the other and in time the dust will settle.

What I'd like, is for a head GM person to come here and chat with us all. The mods can put order to it, maybe gives us all a number so we could ask one question at a time. They need to listen to the praise but they also need to at least hear out our complaints even if nothing can be done about it. In the least, they will be a better company with future products and Camaro's.

It's OK to disagree, to complain, to hear criticism (about our complaints or what ever), to praise, but to silence each other one way or the other will not help GM, but hurt them in the long run.




Note: LOL...can a little forum make a difference?

[Hylton]

Good post but it confuses me a bit. You are quick to discount other peoples concerns but automatically assume that what bothers you is the most valid issue.

Do I care about the weight? I find it unusual that it is so heavy but it does not concern me one bit. 8:20 at Nurbergring tells me all I need to know regarding the cars' capabilities.

I think the real issue is how tolerant can we be to other peoples opinions and concerns when they aren't our own.

[Fandango]

Overall, we have not gotten all the info yet. My only criticism is that they removed the little hood slit ont he RS. The numbers are OK. I may want to look into getting the Auto SS.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Fandango

Overall, we have not gotten all the info yet. My only criticism is that they removed the little hood slit ont he RS. The numbers are OK. I may want to look into getting the Auto SS.

I'll give you mine after I cut it out of my SS! How about that?

[blackZbandit]

I've got to agree this is the most civilized of all of the car boards I frequent which is why it's the only one I actually post on. I love you guys!!! (pause)

[radz28]

I don't know what to make of this

[garfin]

Originally Posted by Cubanaso

What I'd like, is for a head GM person to come here and chat with us all. The mods can put order to it, maybe gives us all a number so we could ask one question at a time. They need to listen to the praise but they also need to at least hear out our complaints even if nothing can be done about it. In the least, they will be a better company with future products and Camaro's.

There could very well be further opportunities in the next few months to participate in more "webchat" events, similar to those that took place earlier this week with members of the Camaro Team.

Best regardSS,

Elie

[chevydude26]

this is the nicest forum i've ever posted on.. only one that compares might be the avs forum

[Cubanaso]

Good post but it confuses me a bit. You are quick to discount other peoples concerns but automatically assume that what bothers you is the most valid issue.

Ummm, no...but let me explain I know that was not my best writing that’s for sure. Flaguy made a post that asked what was the Camaro’s weakest link:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5367

So, most agree it's the weight by the results of the poll itself. So, while I think some of it is a bit petty I'm not saying don't speak up I'm just saying to me some of it is petty. Weight, to me, is not...BUT, if you disagree or anyone else that's fine. The point is, speak up...good for bad, that is what a forum is about. In the least, we can at least consider the complaints and the priase for each to review and form their own opinion.

Dragon made his points, I agree with most of it, not all...that's OK I at least remember that the weight issue is tied into some realities that maybe I was not recognizing.

I think the real issue is how tolerant can we be to other peoples opinions and concerns when they aren't our own.

Exactly, that is my point. I’m not saying don’t speak up or only speak up if you agree with me. I’m saying, speak up PERIOD. I learn from people I agree with and disagree with also. I didn’t like how I worded that post, sorry, what I mean is don’t freak out about too much praise or criticism.

[Cubanaso]

There could very well be further opportunities in the next few months to participate in more "webchat" events, similar to those that took place earlier this week with members of the Camaro Team.

Yeah, I missed them because I'm working but maybe next time I can log in at work. Stuff like that is helpful to GM, not hurtful.

Yeah, AVS Forum is pretty nice, but you do get ignored in there sometimes cause it's so dang huge. BUT, I've also been taken under a few people's wings and they have taught me alot there too.

Well...and my Christian forum, forgivendriven.com (lol).

But, this place is super nice and frankly while I was cool with alot of folks at rx8club, overall this place is BY FAR a nicer place to chat about cars on.

[Mr. Wyndham]

I Agree with most of this. Good or bad feedback; it all holds the same weight, and it should all be recieved respectfully. I will ask anyone commenting though; we're all passionate about the car, but please try to not overdo it...given the MASSIVE traffic lately, we really don't want to read 20+ clone posts of why you like or dislike something......

Now, for the opposite of "most". I have to take issue with a few points (not many).

Originally Posted by Cubanaso

NOT, that there isn't reasoning behind it (I blame, as Dragon said, mainly that it's a global 4 door platform) but I honestly think this is GM's biggest mistake with the car. It's a mistake that makes it fuel economy less than what it can be and it's HP not as efficiently used.

I know you know why the car is as hefty as it is. But be careful when using the word "mistake". It can't be a mistake if there was no choice to begin with. Well...I suppose there was a choice: It was Zeta Camaro, or no Camaro. What would you have chosen?

Originally Posted by Cubanaso

(minus the automatic only G8 GT STUPID STUPID STUPID mistake, lost me as a customer on that one).

Again, be careful with the word "mistake". A transmission must go through validation procedures, which costs $$. After some research they found that for a car like the G8, a manual transmission wasn't going to be checked off on that order form often enough to merit validating it. Not only that, we're all aware (I hope) that a manual does not work well with AFM. So they'd have to go through testing and validation of a two engine setup just like the Camaro. Based on research, there was just not enough demand for the manual to justify it.

And...I'd point you to the nearest Pontiac dealer. The GT's are flying off the lots. It seems it wasn't as big of a mistake for the car as you might have thought.

Originally Posted by Cubanaso

What I'd like, is for a head GM person to come here and chat with us all.

They may not chat, but they watch. They read....we're not a hole in the wall; that's for sure. Between us and the other Camaro sites - we might very well move a mountain if the mood took us....

And like Elie said; they are interested in input from both fields; there'll probably be opportunities in the future.

Originally Posted by Cubanaso

If anything, GM...with the above, be glad it's petty because then that means most of the majors are not real issues.

I wanted this last, so I could end on a happy tone.
Given that so many 'problems' are the equivilant to not liking the color of your local highway; I think it can be concluded that GM hit a home-run and then some!

[Cubanaso]

I know you know why the car is as hefty as it is. But be careful when using the word "mistake". It can't be a mistake if there was no choice to begin with. Well...I suppose there was a choice: It was Zeta Camaro, or no Camaro. What would you have chosen?

True, we don't know if it's a mistake yet really in the sense of sales. I think the Camaro is going to sell through the roof based on it's super good looks. To me, understanding they probably did all they could, I think it's a mistake but point taken. To me, as an a car guy...it's too heavy.

Again, be careful with the word "mistake". A transmission must go through validation procedures, which costs $$. After some research they found that for a car like the G8, a manual transmission wasn't going to be checked off on that order form often enough to merit validating it. Not only that, we're all aware (I hope) that a manual does not work well with AFM. So they'd have to go through testing and validation of a two engine setup just like the Camaro. Based on research, there was just not enough demand for the manual to justify it.

And...I'd point you to the nearest Pontiac dealer. The GT's are flying off the lots. It seems it wasn't as big of a mistake for the car as you might have thought.

True, and you are right again with my misuse of the word mistake. To me it was, as a personal consumer because forcing the automatic killed the deal for me. I know I'm not the only one, and while it's selling great with a stick it could have sold more...at LEAST 1 more for GM. LOL

You see, what this does is that every time I try to buy American (Chevy mainly), they don't offer something I'd consider or force automatics on me so I end up shopping elsewhere. If the G8 had a stick, I'd say bye to the Camaro (for the sake of the family, 4dr would be better) and go find myself a G8 but instead I don't even consider it.

Again, my motives is for them to maximize their sales and almost universally all gear heads are complaining about the lack of stick. The GXP will have one they say, but what will that thing get in fuel economy (and price) 13/20mpg...with $4 per gallon that's a bit too much.

TO ME, A MISTAKE...in reality, maybe that's all that they could do and if sales do great then who cares about car guys like me I guess...while that still leaves me buying something else instead of from GM.

[Hylton]

Originally Posted by Cubanaso

Exactly, that is my point. I’m not saying don’t speak up or only speak up if you agree with me. I’m saying, speak up PERIOD. I learn from people I agree with and disagree with also. I didn’t like how I worded that post, sorry, what I mean is don’t freak out about too much praise or criticism.

Cool! Thanks for the clarification.

[SilverTurtle]

Hi, I'm Turtle Young and I'm a locomotive engineer by trade, but a Mechanical Engineer by education... I have BS in Mechanical Engineering from Rice University in Houston, TX... my comments on Camaro5 are frequently taken as "well, he's just a fan boy" but in the real world, I have a much deeper understanding of what goes on with the design and development of a car than probably 80% of the population... I have several contacts inside GM and Chrysler and I choose to keep those contacts anonymous to preserve my right to talk to them... I am saying this so that most people on here will know that I'm not just some wack job, I'm generally well informed and my words are chosen for a reason.


the weight of the 5th gen Camaro:
never in the history of the name Camaro has a car had to meet, and exceed, so many safety standards... front, side, side curtain and knee airbags are all things that are new to the engineering department... crash safety standards that will have to be met on mulitiple continents... all of this adds up... and as it adds up, the heft of the car goes up and up... and, unfortunately, that's just how it is... there is no other choice.

the engine/powertrain of the 5th gen Camaro:
when was the last time GM told the truth about one of their engines? especially in an f-body... the last 5.7L LS1 was rated at 310bhp in the Z28... my 2002 six speed Z28 dynoed 302.2RWHP... do the math: 302.2 + 15% drivetrain loss = 347.2bhp... now the 422hp rating isn't even FINAL yet... with the new SAE standards, its a little harder to hide horsepower, but when you see numbers like this, DO NOT FREAK OUT... this is all still speculation and the hard numbers aren't in yet... I encourage each and every one of you, even the V6 guys, to get on a dyno once you get a car in your hands... I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

the look of the 5th gen Camaro:
have you seen how similar this car is to the Concept? from interior to exterior, its almost identical... and, honestly, I think that the interior of the car looks even BETTER than the Concepts because I think the Concept's interior looked kinda over the top childlike... too much flash and not enough function... and the production interior doesn't do that... its functional, comfortable and very easy to use... all of the buttons that are supposed to be within reach of the driver are in ergonomically correct places... and I love it... but that's just me... before you hate on any single thing in there, go look at one yourself... they'll be at Indy... they'll probably be at the Woodward Dream Cruise... go out and find this car and look for yourself.
The exterior of the car is something between classy and sexy... its got alot of what you expect in a Camaro with a few surprises... you have to understand that some things had to be sacrificed in the name of safety and target market... the ability to make each car your own is what will make this car a success, just like the 4th gen has been a wild success... how many of us have cars that look 100% identical? probably not many anymore, almost 6 years after the last 2002 rolled off the assembly line... and by the time 2015 rolls around and we're six years into the availability of the 5th gen, I'm betting almost none of them will look identical, too... so, again, I encourage each and every one of y'all to go and look for yourself at this car... I promise, it will be worth the drive, plane ticket and/or time you spend getting there.


my gripes:
the HUD should have been available at launch... there's got to be a good reason for this, none of which I can seem to find, but the HUD is a HUGE selling point for a car in this market... giving the RS models a HUD standard would have been a huge advantage to the Camaro... ball dropped, nothing we can do about it now.

the slit at the top of the grill should be optional... if it doesn't function, why not make it an option? yes, I know that would mean making another, THIRD front end assembly, but the look of the RS equipped car without the slit is just sexy, IMO, and it harkens back to the original 1st gens... the car would have sold without it... other than that, I like the SS front end and would choose its shape over the regular front end... my perfect combination would definitely be the SS bottom and V6 top.

the Z28 shouldn't have been delayed... making the decision to delay a car like that, as well as delaying the 'vert, was a bad idea... I hope that GM was watching this week when their stock price rose 50% when the Camaro information hit the internet... this car is the new halo car, GM... the Corvette is going upmarket and out of the common man's price range... time to make good with a car that the common man can afford... FWD SS cars aren't cutting it anymore... the CAMARO is your new breadwinner, and its what is going to draw people into the dealerships and sells Malibus, Cobalts, HHRs and Impalas to those guys that can't justify the Camaro to their wives/girlfriends... the Challenger 'vert is already slated for 2010 release... lets get the Camaro 'vert and Z28 models on the market and not be late to the ballgame for once, shall we?

oh, and I'm fairly sure that this has already been addressed internally, but for the LOVE OF GOD, please dont offer a Z28 'vert... there will be aftermarket manufacturers that offer superchargers for the 'vert when its launched... its one less car to have to develope and if you really want to go that fast, the only thing topless should be your passenger.