Toyota to Fix Accelerators after Largest US Recall

[Captain Awesome]

[QUOTE=InventoryGuy;1190329]
I just can't believe that some of you are so dilutted to think that any manufacturer (I mean ANY) could get away with a large scale coverup like some of you are proposing. You are tlaking about them reflashing EVERY car that comes in for service, making up things like improving acceleration and what not. I mean come on people, sit back and lot at how retarded that makes you sound. If any of you who are claiming such a great conspiracy work anywhere near the car business you would know that is just not possible.
[quote]

This is NOT a "car" problem. This is a "software" problem. The solution I suggested is completely plausible because I am in the "software business" and have personally seen these types of tricks played on software in various other consumer goods. You don't need to be in the car business to grasp this idea. To suggest that it sounds "retarded" just shows your complete ignorance of how things work.

Another scenario... they could just as easily do a recall to "add new software to protect you in a sudden acceleration event". They can require you to reflash the computer with this new firmware which contains "new safety features" or "improvements". It's quite common to issue software patches in the software industry that fix huge bugs and simply call it an "improvement" or a "feature". No cover up needed. Just get that "new" firmware ASAP to help you prevent this issue.

As for the rest of your post claiming no conspiracy of this magnitude will go unnoticed, there are PLENTY of conspiracies perpetrated by Toyotie that HAVE been uncovered (the rotting frame issue, etc.) but due to compliant media coverage and denial or apologists spreading misinformation there are FEW people who are aware of these issues. It doesn't NEED to be a "cover up" when everyone is making excuses for it to the general public and putting the blame on someone else or putting a 'spin" on it to maintain the perception of Toyotie Qwalitie(tm).

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by cHaotix

I think that's against the law. Not so much the flashing but trying to pull it off without allowing anyone to know what was really changed.

Unless the NHTSA is looking at the source code and the specifications the software team uses and are actually programmers themselves, I don't see this being a problem.

I doubt that anyone in any beaurocracy requires that each and every software change be reported in specificity and tracked in a database... that would be the same as giving the NHTSA the complete specs for every part in the car and notifying them every time a change is made. No way do they track in this kind of detail.

Furthermore, what's to stop them from fixing the problem with the accelerator and reporting the fix with a nice innocent sounding euphamism such as "Changed throttle response algorithm to reduce fuel consumption under full throttle."? Ok... so this technically describes what they could change to correct this issue without calling attention to the fact it is a defect. Anyone looking at "what changed" will never know. It's all nice and legal since nobody "lied". The description is exactly what the new flash does differently, just like you asked.

(This is all hypothetical)

[InventoryGuy]

The flaw in your logic captain awesome is that you are assuming that every toyota comes to a toyota facility for repair. What kind of liability would toyota be under if they did diagnois this as a software issue (like you seem so hell bent on) and hood winked everyone who came to a dealership to get it done. For all the hundreds of thousands of people who never see a dealership (no work needed) and take their cars to the local jiffy lube to get the oil changed. It would be suicide to do the kiind of conspiracy you are talking about. Because then you go far beyond just making a mistake but then you are criminally liable for the cover up.

This is why your spouting off about how bad Toyota is makes you sound retarded.

Do your research on the "rotting" frame issue. You will see such a tiny amount of vehicles covered under that recall it is almost a joke. But more importantly look at what steps they took as a company to correct it for their customers.

Once again rolling back into that everyone makes mistakes, just some manufacturers makes less that others due to build process and then go above and beyond to make it right.

This "safety advisory" is widespread because it relates to almost EVERY car being built because almost every car has floor mats. They haven't done a recall because they (or anyone else) haven't pinpointed the issue. So being on the conservative side they issued an advisory to touch every vehicle that MIGHT be in question. Once the known issue is pinpointed then you will see a true recall to handle the is

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by InventoryGuy

The flaw in your logic captain awesome is that you are assuming that every toyota comes to a toyota facility for repair. What kind of liability would toyota be under if they did diagnois this as a software issue (like you seem so hell bent on) and hood winked everyone who came to a dealership to get it done. For all the hundreds of thousands of people who never see a dealership (no work needed) and take their cars to the local jiffy lube to get the oil changed. It would be suicide to do the kiind of conspiracy you are talking about. Because then you go far beyond just making a mistake but then you are criminally liable for the cover up.

This is why your spouting off about how bad Toyota is makes you sound retarded.

Do your research on the "rotting" frame issue. You will see such a tiny amount of vehicles covered under that recall it is almost a joke. But more importantly look at what steps they took as a company to correct it for their customers.

Once again rolling back into that everyone makes mistakes, just some manufacturers makes less that others due to build process and then go above and beyond to make it right.

This "safety advisory" is widespread because it relates to almost EVERY car being built because almost every car has floor mats. They haven't done a recall because they (or anyone else) haven't pinpointed the issue. So being on the conservative side they issued an advisory to touch every vehicle that MIGHT be in question. Once the known issue is pinpointed then you will see a true recall to handle the is

You are awfully defensive of..."that" company. May I ask, purely because I'm curious, do you have some sort of connection with them outside of your tundra?

[MLL67RSSS]

I see a couple of things that could have an affect on Toyota's response to the issue. Just throwing it out there for your consideration.

1. In Japanese culture one thing that is very important and pervasive in their society is the concept of "saving face."

"SAVING FACE
Accuracy is important to the Japanese and errors are not well accepted. A Japanese does not like being put in the position of having to admit a mistake or failure. To do so means losing face and this is very serious. They are also hesitant to admit they did not understand something.
The Japanese tend to see criticism as personal and don’t understand how Americans can separate criticism of one’s actions from criticizing one personally."

It is not uncommon for people higher in Japanese society when found to have done something wrong or illegal that affects others and have "lost face" to take their own lives. They take it very seriously.

2. They may be trying to avoid what happend to Audi when the media reported in the early '90's that it's cars suffered from cases of "unintended acceleration."

From Wikipedia:
"This decline in sales was not helped in the United States by a 60 Minutes report which showed faked footage an Audi 5000 suffering from a supposed problem of "unintended acceleration" when the brake pedal was pushed, and emotional interviews with six people who had sued Audi after they crashed their cars. Independent investigators concluded there was no mechanical problem, and driver error, partially due to drivers not paying attention to the closer placement of the accelerator and brake pedals than some American cars. The difference was partially attributed to European driver's preferences for smoother heel-and-toe driving techniques. This did not become an issue in Europe, possibly due to more widespread experience among European drivers with manual transmissions.
The report immediately crushed Audi sales, and Audi renamed the affected model (The 5000 became the 100/200 in 1989, as it was elsewhere). Audi had contemplated withdrawing from the American market until sales began to recover in the mid-1990s.

If they publically admit that there is an issue with the cars that causes "unintended acceleration" they "loose face", and it could be very detrimental to thier sales.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by InventoryGuy

The flaw in your logic captain awesome is that you are assuming that every toyota comes to a toyota facility for repair. What kind of liability would toyota be under if they did diagnois this as a software issue (like you seem so hell bent on) and hood winked everyone who came to a dealership to get it done. For all the hundreds of thousands of people who never see a dealership (no work needed) and take their cars to the local jiffy lube to get the oil changed. It would be suicide to do the kiind of conspiracy you are talking about. Because then you go far beyond just making a mistake but then you are criminally liable for the cover up.

The flaw in your logic is you don't seem to read what other people say and just spout off ad hominem attacks on them by saying they sound "retarded", etc.

Just as a reminder so you don't need to go back and re-read the debate, I said that the software "fix" could be done when the floor mat recall was done. Jiffy Lube is NOT an authorized Toyota service center, so they are NOT replacing the floor mats.

You keep flipping out and using loaded phrases like "cover up" and "hood winked". I don't see how anyone could conclude it's a "cover up" if they "correct" the problem and give it a marketing "spin" to make it sound to the gullible drones in the media that Toyota is simply "improving" their already stellar car by giving everyone a free upgrade.

Heck, at this point they don't even have to pretend the flash is anything but a bug fix... with people as brainwashed as you are defending them at every turn they can admit it's a software glitch and YOU will put the "spin" out in public for them. "Hey! Toyota is so AWESOME they are giving everybody the latest firmware for FREE, just for getting their floor mats replaced! It's a special deal they offer. They are very concerned with safety and want to encourage everyone to get their mats replaced so they are giving us all a free firmware reflash, which is a $199 value... FREE. Aren't they WONDERFUL? (swoon)"

This is why your spouting off about how bad Toyota is makes you sound retarded.

This is twice you've tried to use this same insult. All the while I've resisted the temptation to make comments about your literacy by citing your spelling and grammatical errors.

Do your research on the "rotting" frame issue. You will see such a tiny amount of vehicles covered under that recall it is almost a joke. But more importantly look at what steps they took as a company to correct it for their customers.

Tell that to the guy who's brakes failed because of this.

[Super83Z]

Originally Posted by InventoryGuy

Do your research on the "rotting" frame issue. You will see such a tiny amount of vehicles covered under that recall it is almost a joke. But more importantly look at what steps they took as a company to correct it for their customers.

Are you saying that EVERY 95-00 Tacoma they made is a tiny amount that is almost a joke? Ever been to a junkyard? Next time your there check out all the Toyota trucks that are there. Alot of the pre 95 trucks are having the same rot issues on the frames. The Tundras are affected as well as the 01-04 Tacomas. I saw on another board that someones 04 Tacoma was having its frame replaced. That is just ridiculous.

[Mr Smith]

Maybe in MA they are...They sure arent out here..If you manage to find a Tacoma in a junkyard...its mangled beyond belief. All the rest of them get snatched up before they hit the yard.

Originally Posted by Super83Z

Are you saying that EVERY 95-00 Tacoma they made is a tiny amount that is almost a joke? Ever been to a junkyard? Next time your there check out all the Toyota trucks that are there. Alot of the pre 95 trucks are having the same rot issues on the frames. The Tundras are affected as well as the 01-04 Tacomas. I saw on another board that someones 04 Tacoma was having its frame replaced. That is just ridiculous.

[InventoryGuy]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

The flaw in your logic is you don't seem to read what other people say and just spout off ad hominem attacks on them by saying they sound "retarded", etc.

Just as a reminder so you don't need to go back and re-read the debate, I said that the software "fix" could be done when the floor mat recall was done. Jiffy Lube is NOT an authorized Toyota service center, so they are NOT replacing the floor mats.

You keep flipping out and using loaded phrases like "cover up" and "hood winked". I don't see how anyone could conclude it's a "cover up" if they "correct" the problem and give it a marketing "spin" to make it sound to the gullible drones in the media that Toyota is simply "improving" their already stellar car by giving everyone a free upgrade.

Heck, at this point they don't even have to pretend the flash is anything but a bug fix... with people as brainwashed as you are defending them at every turn they can admit it's a software glitch and YOU will put the "spin" out in public for them. "Hey! Toyota is so AWESOME they are giving everybody the latest firmware for FREE, just for getting their floor mats replaced! It's a special deal they offer. They are very concerned with safety and want to encourage everyone to get their mats replaced so they are giving us all a free firmware reflash, which is a $199 value... FREE. Aren't they WONDERFUL? (swoon)"



This is twice you've tried to use this same insult. All the while I've resisted the temptation to make comments about your literacy by citing your spelling and grammatical errors.



Tell that to the guy who's brakes failed because of this.

I'll stop trying to talk sense into you. Spelling is from typing on a laptop in bed before going to sleep and not enough concern to correct errors.

You haven't seen me be defensive of toyota. I have said several times that I don't knwo what is causing all the claims against toyota, wouldn't presume to either.

I do know that in all teh Toyota's I have driven I have never encountered any acceleration issues. I did encounter the issue in my 97 Silverado when I had bought cheap all weather mats and they pinned the accelerator down when I was driving to fast to begin with ( showing off after I installed a Hypertech programmer), hence my first hand knowledge of that issue.

I just find it silly that you actually believe that a company of that magnitude would actually try to hide fixing a concern like you are talking about. It would be suicide to any company to do such a thing and even the slightest thing leak out about it. It falls back to the Audi reference (which I was going to leave out) and what that kind of bad press would do to ANY manufacturer.

But obviously you will continue to believe that Toyota is the root of all evil. So enjoy your witch hunt while you can.

[nasty2ss]

Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS

Get informed. Wait a minute, were you being a wisenheimer?

Gotcha

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by InventoryGuy

I'll stop trying to talk sense into you. Spelling is from typing on a laptop in bed before going to sleep and not enough concern to correct errors.

You haven't seen me be defensive of toyota. I have said several times that I don't knwo what is causing all the claims against toyota, wouldn't presume to either.

I do know that in all teh Toyota's I have driven I have never encountered any acceleration issues. I did encounter the issue in my 97 Silverado when I had bought cheap all weather mats and they pinned the accelerator down when I was driving to fast to begin with ( showing off after I installed a Hypertech programmer), hence my first hand knowledge of that issue.

I just find it silly that you actually believe that a company of that magnitude would actually try to hide fixing a concern like you are talking about. It would be suicide to any company to do such a thing and even the slightest thing leak out about it. It falls back to the Audi reference (which I was going to leave out) and what that kind of bad press would do to ANY manufacturer.

But obviously you will continue to believe that Toyota is the root of all evil. So enjoy your witch hunt while you can.

Toyota is not the "root of all evil" as you accuse our enthusiasts of all but saying. A lot of us, if not all of us, respect other brands besides GM, but Toyota has caused quite a stir for people with a long-standing policy of scratching performance products for products that are easy to sell. This trend irritates car enthusiasts in general, so Camaro5 members naturally would be hesitant to support a brand without any current performance reputation.

Additionally, it is not surprising to find at least some Toyota-bound hostility on a site almost exclusively featuring a membership comprised of GM enthusiasts. Toyota is the top competitor to GM's products, and the whole function of Camaro5 is to discuss issues and products related to a sporty GM product. Toyota neither produces sporty products nor GM products. In my opinion, Camaro5 members have shown remarkable respect for other brands despite the abundant unity behind a given GM product. Rather than disrespecting the opinions of these nearly 20,000 Camaro5 members, perhaps it is the one contrary opinion that should be reconsidered.

Toyota has produced products that accelerate uncontrollably. Regardless of the cause, that is not good. It is even worse for the company that Toyota drivers complain of this problem shortly after the largest US recall in history. It gets worse for Toyota. The company has decided to challenge the Insurance Institute's safety rankings for its cars despite the fact that the IIHS is among the most respected sources of rankings in the industry.

Clearly, Toyota is not in a good place. This public scrutiny is showing serious problems with the company. No one should be defending this. We should be demanding improvement. I have been hoping for Toyota to regain its place of respect in performance by reviving great products like the Supra and MR2, but to my dismay these products or any alternatives have yet to return. In all seriousness, Hyundai—not exactly a performance powerhouse—has managed to adjust its bland image by producing the sporty, if ugly, Genesis. These sports cars generate interest in the brand by associating even the most average cars in the company with a reputation of performance, style, and sometimes luxury.

Toyota does not spend its resources on the performance cars that other companies produce, so the least we can ask of Toyota's bland, average cars is that they get drivers from one point to another safely. Toyota cannot even deliver on this basic premise of producing cars. Instead, Toyota promises reliability. You can rely on Toyotas to be recalled for one reason or another, whether it be explosive batteries or uncontrollable acceleration. This is a terrible sign for Toyota, and there's no spinning that.

[Captain Awesome]

Originally Posted by InventoryGuy

I'll stop trying to talk sense into you.

You spelled "nonsense" wrong.

Spelling is from typing on a laptop in bed before going to sleep and not enough concern to correct errors.

Bad spelling excuse: CHECK
Bad grammar excuse: FAIL

You haven't seen me be defensive of toyota. I have said several times that I don't knwo what is causing all the claims against toyota, wouldn't presume to either.

You misrepresented the number of claims regarding the frame rotting issue.

I do know that in all teh Toyota's I have driven I have never encountered any acceleration issues. I did encounter the issue in my 97 Silverado when I had bought cheap all weather mats and they pinned the accelerator down when I was driving to fast to begin with ( showing off after I installed a Hypertech programmer), hence my first hand knowledge of that issue.

WOW! What a coincidence!!!!

I just find it silly that you actually believe that a company of that magnitude would actually try to hide fixing a concern like you are talking about. It would be suicide to any company to do such a thing and even the slightest thing leak out about it. It falls back to the Audi reference (which I was going to leave out) and what that kind of bad press would do to ANY manufacturer.

I only believe what the evidence points to. You believe what your denial and blind loyalty tells you to.

But obviously you will continue to believe that Toyota is the root of all evil. So enjoy your witch hunt while you can.

Let me be clear. Toyota in NOT the root of all evil. They are on par with what many other companies would do. The only problem is that drones and consumer magazines seem to have elevated them to an undeserved position of superiority.

[Xanthos]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Let me be clear. Toyota in NOT the root of all evil. They are on par with what many other companies would do. The only problem is that drones and consumer magazines seem to have elevated them to an undeserved position of superiority.

Any sane company on the planet would be trying to combat and minimize the bad PR at this point. What bothers me is the number of people who seem to think Toyota is infallible.
- X

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Captain Awesome

Let me be clear. Toyota in NOT the root of all evil. They are on par with what many other companies would do. The only problem is that drones and consumer magazines seem to have elevated them to an undeserved position of superiority.

Feel this has been done with a lot of things this country buys.