Question about suspension upgrade and traction control

[OPP]

So the Camaro suffers from understeer. When you upgrade the sway bars, you'll have oversteer and you can get a loose rear. These tests are done with traction control off right? What happens when you have all the babysitters on. Will the traction control save me from a loose rear in a curve or will it go crazy with the new setup and let me crash?

[Jaysin]

The stability track will kick in and save your butt.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

it will make you crash less, lol

The stability management will only come in to effect once you've started to loose control. If you drive with in your limits this should not ever happen.

with that said, if you are thinking that you may rely on the stability management, then you may not want to go a a sway bar setup that will not induce so much oversteer.

Pedders offers 4 solutions for sway bars,
Solution A is just a front 27mm front sway bar, this will help with the roll a ton, but will not help the understeer
Solution B is 27mm front and rear bars, and corrects the ratio to a more appropriate than the OE ratio is, but is not what would be considered a competition setup.
Solution C is a 27mm front bar, and a 32mm rear bar, while this seems like an inappropriate ratio, keep in mind the rear bar mounts way in board and the front bar mounts out near the wheels. This is a competition setup and should only be installed by those that have had competitive drivers training.
Solution D contains 3 bars, the 27mm front bar, and the 27mm rear bar, as well as the 32mm rear bar, so you can change our the rear bar for daily driving, or competition.

[JusticePete]

They have covered it.

[OPP]

Good info, thanks.

[BMR guy]

Originally Posted by OPP

So the Camaro suffers from understeer. When you upgrade the sway bars, you'll have oversteer and you can get a loose rear. These tests are done with traction control off right? What happens when you have all the babysitters on. Will the traction control save me from a loose rear in a curve or will it go crazy with the new setup and let me crash?

There is no reason you have to introduce oversteer into the equation. With our sway bars and a lot of others in the market both the front and rear are adjustable. We shoot for a neutral setting and a balanced car. I can't speak for other companies' bars but we have 9 possible combinations with ours. Even using our softest settings, the bar diameters themselves not only increase overall roll resistance but also neutralize the understeer. You would have to leave the stock front bar on the car and put our rear bar on the stiffest setting in order to introduce enough oversteer for it to feel noticeable.

To give you a good example of how versatile this platform is, read the following. We have been testing our Xtreme rear drag bar at the track recently and sometimes drive with it on the street. This bar is rated at 3614 lbs/in torsional rate, 770% stiffer than the OE bar. Even with this bar on the car, the Zeta is very driveable through corners, with a fair amount of oversteer obviously but completely manageable. The point is don't let all of the internet naysayers tell you that adding swaybars is suddenly going to make your car unmanageable and the oversteer is going to put you in the ditch.

[600hp-lpe]

Suspension changes may help correct it (understeer) somewhat, but won't push you WAY over to the point you are oversteering excessively.

You want to improve handling with parts and want to be in a neutral steering situation.

It will take an excessive amount of parts and you also need to change the geometry of the car to get it into an oversteering condition.

[JusticePete]

No one posted OOP's 5th Gen would be 'unmanageable'. Here is the the original post.

Originally Posted by OPP

So the Camaro suffers from understeer. When you upgrade the sway bars, you'll have oversteer and you can get a loose rear. These tests are done with traction control off right? What happens when you have all the babysitters on. Will the traction control save me from a loose rear in a curve or will it go crazy with the new setup and let me crash?

1. Our testing is done with the TC on and off.

2. With all the baby sitter's on the TC and Stability Management work the same way as they would with the OE bars and will step in based on the computer programing.

3. The 5th Gen will not go crazy. A 5th Gen will crash when the car and driver reach a terminal point. TC and Stability Management help with a little too much speed in a corner, but they are not a solution for way too fast in a corner. As Rob said, 'it will make you crash less'. Jaysin had it right too.

Originally Posted by Jaysin

The stability track will kick in and save your butt.

Unless you push too far. Pedders offers 4 solutions for sway bars.

• Solution A is just a front 27mm front sway bar, this will help with the roll a ton, but will not help the understeer
  
• Solution B is 27mm front and rear bars, and corrects the ratio to a more appropriate than the OE ratio is, but is not what would be considered a competition setup.
  
• Solution C is a 27mm front bar, and a 32mm rear bar, while this seems like an inappropriate ratio, keep in mind the rear bar mounts way in board and the front bar mounts out near the wheels. This is a competition setup and should only be installed by those that have had competitive drivers training.
  
• Solution D contains 3 bars, the 27mm front bar, and the 27mm rear bar, as well as the 32mm rear bar, so you can change our the rear bar for daily driving, or competition.
  
• Overall vehicle setup and front to rear bars size bias combine with vehicle speed to create understeer or oversteer.

All of our bars are adjustable front and rear. The adjustments allow you to alter your setup within the range of the bar size. That is why we offer multiple bar sets -- so you as the driver get your setup just right. Virtually every production automobile currently built has understeer built in. This is due to two main factors.

It 'protects' the manufacturer liability-wise.

Most drivers have been trained to slow down when a car starts to slide. Track side you'll hear drivers say -- don't lift until you see God. The most aggressive drivers don't lift until they are absolutely convinced they will be making a permanent visit with God. They know that staying on a car in oversteer or even adding a bit more throttle will bring the car around. They also know lifting when in oversteer mode will make things worse -- fast. Braking and slowing down in a slide, it doesn't matter to most drivers if it is understeer or oversteer mode all they know is they are sliding, is the default reaction starting with driver's education.

Probing for oversteer, searching for the edge or worse reaching the bleeding edger in street driving is irresponsible and can be fatal. As for reaching oversteer in a Pedderised vehicle on the street, only the most reckless driver would be going that fast in a turn on a public roadway. The 'danger' in a Pedderised 5th Gen is the overall competence of the vehicle. Posted speed limits become incredibly boring. Holding your speed down to anything close to responsible takes discipline. The weekend autocross, HPDE or other road course events are the responsible way to experience a Pedderised 5th Gen and velocity induced oversteer.

Never, ever test your Camaro setup on the street. Test your driving limits and setup in a controlled environment. The life you save may be your own.

[ssmike]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

No one posted OOP's 5th Gen would be 'unmanageable'. Here is the the original post.



1. Our testing is done with the TC on and off.

2. With all the baby sitter's on the TC and Stability Management work the same way as they would with the OE bars and will step in based on the computer programing.

3. The 5th Gen will not go crazy. A 5th Gen will crash when the car and driver reach a terminal point. TC and Stability Management help with a little too much speed in a corner, but they are not a solution for way too fast in a corner. As Rob said, 'it will make you crash less'. Jaysin had it right too.



Unless you push too far. Pedders offers 4 solutions for sway bars.

• Solution A is just a front 27mm front sway bar, this will help with the roll a ton, but will not help the understeer
  
• Solution B is 27mm front and rear bars, and corrects the ratio to a more appropriate than the OE ratio is, but is not what would be considered a competition setup.
  
• Solution C is a 27mm front bar, and a 32mm rear bar, while this seems like an inappropriate ratio, keep in mind the rear bar mounts way in board and the front bar mounts out near the wheels. This is a competition setup and should only be installed by those that have had competitive drivers training.
  
• Solution D contains 3 bars, the 27mm front bar, and the 27mm rear bar, as well as the 32mm rear bar, so you can change our the rear bar for daily driving, or competition.
  
• Overall vehicle setup and front to rear bars size bias combine with vehicle speed to create understeer or oversteer.

All of our bars are adjustable front and rear. The adjustments allow you to alter your setup within the range of the bar size. That is why we offer multiple bar sets -- so you as the driver get your setup just right. Virtually every production automobile currently built has understeer built in. This is due to two main factors.

It 'protects' the manufacturer liability-wise.

Most drivers have been trained to slow down when a car starts to slide. Track side you'll hear drivers say -- don't lift until you see God. The most aggressive drivers don't lift until they are absolutely convinced they will be making a permanent visit with God. They know that staying on a car in oversteer or even adding a bit more throttle will bring the car around. They also know lifting when in oversteer mode will make things worse -- fast. Braking and slowing down in a slide, it doesn't matter to most drivers if it is understeer or oversteer mode all they know is they are sliding, is the default reaction starting with driver's education.

Probing for oversteer, searching for the edge or worse reaching the bleeding edger in street driving is irresponsible and can be fatal. As for reaching oversteer in a Pedderised vehicle on the street, only the most reckless driver would be going that fast in a turn on a public roadway. The 'danger' in a Pedderised 5th Gen is the overall competence of the vehicle. Posted speed limits become incredibly boring. Holding your speed down to anything close to responsible takes discipline. The weekend autocross, HPDE or other road course events are the responsible way to experience a Pedderised 5th Gen and velocity induced oversteer.

[COLOR="Red"]Never, ever test your Camaro setup on the street. Test your driving limits and setup in a controlled environment. The life you save may be your own.[/COLOR]

Well said Pete!

[PfadtRacing]

Quote as taken directly from a BMW owners manual -

BMW's DSC can't overcome the laws of physics

Same thing applies to all traction control systems, but a little drivers education goes a long way. Just as BMR Guy has pointed out, these are heavy cars that will soak up large increases in roll stiffness and still stay predictable.

Sway bars on your car are a completely safe modification, and if you feel it's necessary to drive with the traction control on at all times that's absolutely one way to add another layer of safety to an already stable chassis. The traction control system will maintain normal operation after installation.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by ssmike

[/B]

Well said Pete!

Thank you.

[RJT2SSRS]

I have a couple of questions for JusticePete. I have the Camaro B package coming in a couple of days. Rodgers Chevrolet is going to be doing the install. The recommended setting on Pedders sale page is for full soft on the rear bar and full hard on the front bar. Will that setting be closest to the stock bars on a 2SS/RS Camaro? I already have the front and rear subframe bushing inserts as well as the front radius rod bushings. I have also replaced the rear trailing arms and rear toe arms(BMR).They both have poly bushings in them. The second question concerns replacing the current stock front tires with the wider (stock size) rear tires. Will that adversely affect the the install of the Camaro solution B bar and end link setup? I know this was a long read but you seem to be the man with the best answers:-)

[JusticePete]

Great question.

Front Bar full hard, rear bar full soft -- body lean and roll are under control. The car is more neutral than stock.

Front bar full soft, rear bar full hard -- body lean and roll are under control. The car is now a bit biased to oversteer.

The bigger the rear bar in relation to the front the greater the change in the balance.

As for wider front tires I am biased toward 305/30/19s on 19x10.5 wheels. Wider front wheels and tires should not have any impact on the sway bar installation. If it does, there is something really wrong with the wheel offset.

[RJT2SSRS]

Thanks for the answer JusticePete. I am definitely looking forward to driving again after the install is complete. On the wheel front,I like the 19" wheel better also. Just have to plant another money tree(or maybe an orchard).