Water Meth Help!

[camslambam]

Wondering what you guys mixing with 91 octane fuel are hitting octane wise with water meth and what your mixtures are!

I'm going on a 35% alcohol ethanol / 65% water mixture. A 30/70 mix is good for 108 so I'm guessing actually a little bit more than 108. But with the 91 I'm guessing the overall octane will be lower...? Or will I hit 108?

I'm actually calling snow up to get their tech to clear any doubts! But still would like to know what you guys think / what you guys are running through your systems!

[lexlueger]

Wait...what? Meth injection doesn't change your octane. Your injecting into your intake. Did I misread your question?

[lexlueger]

Your injecting based on boost so any octane increase would only be under boost as opposed to filling your tank with 93, 102 etc.

[camslambam]

I'm trying to establish what octane I will have under boost. I was under the impression that it'll be 108 but was told that it mixes? with 91 and it won't be 108?

Everyone down here uses this 35/65 mixture for turbos/sc on high hp cars.


In other words what am I going to have to tune the car for.

[MileMAN402]

Have you considered putting octane booster directly in your gas too? If you have any worries that your gas is unreliable in central america, I would definitely consider putting some torco in every tank

[lexlueger]

Originally Posted by camslambam

I'm trying to establish what octane I will have under boost. I was under the impression that it'll be 108 but was told that it mixes? with 91 and it won't be 108?

Everyone down here uses this 35/65 mixture for turbos/sc on high hp cars.


In other words what am I going to have to tune the car for.

You never tune for meth...if it fails or runs out you will blow your engine!!!
Run your regular 93 octane or whatever is available in your area. Methanol is a safety net, the bonus is lower IAT's and increased octane.

[camslambam]

Originally Posted by MileMAN402

Have you considered putting octane booster directly in your gas too? If you have any worries that your gas is unreliable in central america, I would definitely consider putting some torco in every tank

Yeah. I'm thinking nos booster (+6 octane points) or torco (which I have to find here). I'm thinking either of these would throw roughly a 95 octane?

[Rodney@AIS]

Originally Posted by camslambam

Wondering what you guys mixing with 91 octane fuel are hitting octane wise with water meth and what your mixtures are!

I'm going on a 35% alcohol ethanol / 65% water mixture. A 30/70 mix is good for 108 so I'm guessing actually a little bit more than 108. But with the 91 I'm guessing the overall octane will be lower...? Or will I hit 108?

I'm actually calling snow up to get their tech to clear any doubts! But still would like to know what you guys think / what you guys are running through your systems!

What type of supercharger are you running?

We've played a lot with different mixtures over the years trying to get the most out of various builds and combinations and this is what we have found. There are definitely certain mixtures that work best for certain applications. There is not one type of mixture that works best for everyone.

On centrifugal's and turbo's we have found that higher % of methanol or pure methanol works best. This is because you are basically injecting this into a hot velocity of air and essentially shot gunning right through the intake into the cylinders. With that you want something like methanol that will flash off quickly when it hits the air. Water is a lot more resilient and requires a lot more heat then methanol to flash off in the intake.

On the other hand. With positive displacement supercharges we found keeping a fair % of water in the mixture helped us get a better tune giving us a bigger tuning window to work with. The reason I think this is. Everything we are spraying is injected in the inlet of the supercharger. Its coming in contact with all the hot surfaces of the rotor pack and housing and flashing off instantly with out lower the temps much. We can tell this just by toughing the outside of the housing after a pull on the dyno without even looking at the IAT's.

Additionally, when we used pure methanol. We weren't getting the tuning window we wanted. We eventually did but it was after spraying a huge shot that would require us to pull out a lot of fuel out of the tune which I didn't like. the methanol is so quick to evaporate that its simply not pulling the heat out of the supercharger as well as water. Water seems to work much better at cooling off the housing and the rotor pack.

For what ever the reason. Mixtures such as 50/50 or something containing a large percentage of water gave us the biggest tuning window.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions. We are currently doing a lot of testing with the ProMod n/a nitrous guys right now. The most I can say right now is that pure water is working the best. Methanol has no place on a ProMod nitrous engine. Mixtures really vary depending on the application.

Rodney

[camslambam]

Originally Posted by Rodney@AIS

What type of supercharger are you running?

We've played a lot with different mixtures over the years trying to get the most out of various builds and combinations and this is what we have found. There are definitely certain mixtures that work best for certain applications. There is not one type of mixture that works best for everyone.

On centrifugal's and turbo's we have found that higher % of methanol or pure methanol works best. This is because you are basically injecting this into a hot velocity of air and essentially shot gunning right through the intake into the cylinders. With that you want something like methanol that will flash off quickly when it hits the air. Water is a lot more resilient and requires a lot more heat then methanol to flash off in the intake.

On the other hand. With positive displacement supercharges we found keeping a fair % of water in the mixture helped us get a better tune giving us a bigger tuning window to work with. The reason I think this is. Everything we are spraying is injected in the inlet of the supercharger. Its coming in contact with all the hot surfaces of the rotor pack and housing and flashing off instantly with out lower the temps much. We can tell this just by toughing the outside of the housing after a pull on the dyno without even looking at the IAT's.

Additionally, when we used pure methanol. We weren't getting the tuning window we wanted. We eventually did but it was after spraying a huge shot that would require us to pull out a lot of fuel out of the tune which I didn't like. the methanol is so quick to evaporate that its simply not pulling the heat out of the supercharger as well as water. Water seems to work much better at cooling off the housing and the rotor pack.

For what ever the reason. Mixtures such as 50/50 or something containing a large percentage of water gave us the biggest tuning window.

Hope this helps answer some of your questions. We are currently doing a lot of testing with the ProMod n/a nitrous guys right now. The most I can say right now is that pure water is working the best. Methanol has no place on a ProMod nitrous engine. Mixtures really vary depending on the application.

Rodney

TVS2300.

It's hard to find pure methanol down here and pure meth is dangerous isn't it...? I mean besides being a bitch to handle doesn't it burn invisible?

Just been told by lots of fi guys down here to avoid pure meth in mixture and just go with something like ethanol/water, etc.

[grocerygetter]

nothing wrong with pure meth...AIS guy is right for sure...ask anyone with a alky set up on a Turbo Buick...we've been doing meth stuff at large volumes for years/

[Andy@AMSOIL]

If you have ethanol available use it instead, methanol can be your best friend or worst enemy if you don't know how to use t and maintain the system, it is also very corrosive which you may not care in this case,,, it keeps your internals clean also

[grocerygetter]

boy...clean is an understatement. lol My GN has 125k miles on it and you'd never know looking down the intake tract. lol

[Rodney@AIS]

Originally Posted by camslambam

Wondering what you guys mixing with 91 octane fuel are hitting octane wise with water meth and what your mixtures are!

I'm going on a 35% alcohol ethanol / 65% water mixture. A 30/70 mix is good for 108 so I'm guessing actually a little bit more than 108. But with the 91 I'm guessing the overall octane will be lower...? Or will I hit 108?

I'm actually calling snow up to get their tech to clear any doubts! But still would like to know what you guys think / what you guys are running through your systems!

There isn't a formula or certain value based on just mixture alone. Unfortunately, its not as easy as that. Additionally, if it did work that way you would need to consider the jetting as well. For example lets say you were running 100% methanol but had the wrong jetting and was using two small of a jet. You wouldn't get the so called added octane or tuning window expected because you weren't spraying enough.

The better question to ask is...

Can I run X,Y and Z and do it with pump gas and water methanol injection?

The build of the engine and what you are trying to achieve needs to be considered too. We've taken engines which required racing fuel and have switched over to pump gas and used water methanol injection to make up the difference. In this example you could say the water methanol injection added a certain amount of octane. I don't like to call it octane but rather describe it as giving you a bigger tuning window. It raises the onset of detonation allowing you to push way past the normal limitations of pump gas.

Hope this helps answer your question. Feel free to ask me any other questions you have.

Rodney

[SC2150]

Originally Posted by lexlueger

You never tune for meth...if it fails or runs out you will blow your engine!!!
Run your regular 93 octane or whatever is available in your area. Methanol is a safety net, the bonus is lower IAT's and increased octane.

and 30/70 is lower than we have ever run. Standard is 50/50 and if using for additional fuel delivery 100% methanol.