Smoking gun for those who are fighting "normal" rub marks

[bulllett]

Hmm, this little tidbit was brought back up recently; http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ETznATuU4Ww

so I went through it and came up with some support for those that are told that rub marks are "normal". If you listen at right around the 2:08 mark you will hear Josh Holder (the Program Validation Engineer for the Camaro) talking about the results of a test that they do for the tops (testing what they say would be a hard use, 10 year span of a top). His position is that after using the roof for 10 years, "We expect the roof to look as it did before we started the test". BAM! No rub marks! (of coursre this also shows the shortcomings of their own test. Because we all know the rub marks come from driving around with the top down).

So here is GM's Program Validation Engineer in direct contradiction of what the GM reps are telling us.

So next time one of these idiots tries to sell you that story, reference Josh Holder's quote.

Oh yeah, fwiw, I didn't let this vid slide by this time. I sent an e-mail to Mr Holder JUST IN CASE he wanted to say he was oblivious to any problems with the tops (which I'm sure he's not). Here is the body of the e-mail;

Mr Holder, I came across the video of you going in the trunk of a new 5th gen Camaro Convertible. Nice Circus act. I haven't seen any GM snake oil being sold with the car, so I'm guessing its the car itself that you are peddling.

I'm not sure how you could put your name and reputation on such a poorly designed product. Maybe you are just that ensconced in the GM hierarchy that you have no attatchment to honesty and integrity. If so, then my words will fall on deaf ears, but maybe they will be cathartic to me.

First let me give you a reference to who I am. I know I'm just a number to you, so I'll give you my case number; 71-1047549383. My story is long, so I'll just cut to the chase. The design you are touting so highly is a mess. There are everything from rub marks, to holes, to popped bows, to leaks, to literally standing water in back seats, to glass popping out, to electrical harnesses rubbing through, to weather stripping pulling out, to....Geez as I start to write these down I'm just flabbergasted by the amount of problems you have with your design (that's 2011, 2012, and 2013). I laugh out loud (not lol, I mean literally I laugh out loud) at your claims of this being such a highly tested and wonderful design. It is just plain and simple a piss poor design. I'd give you references like a facebook page of problems; http://www.facebook.com/groups/226942550693692/ or another nationwide (actually worldwide) forum like Camaro5.com http://www.camaro5.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=133 where you can search out all these problems, but I'm positive you already know about them.

So why do you (as in GM) continue to blame these problems on the customer or say that they are "normal" (and yes I have that in writing from GM stating that the marks are normal and they would do nothing for me. The same marks that are literally making a hole through the top from the inside out!)? More importantly, why the hell can't your brilliant engineers and desgners come up with a proper fix? All I've seen is some patchwork fixes (fix a design with TAPE? C'mon now what kind of moronic idea is that? Probably based in the same reasoning of washing off rub marks. So water and soap will add material back to the top? Just plain chicanery. I guess you guys are so good that you can break the laws of physics).

It is quite apparent through the responses I have received from the GM representatives that you (GM as a whole) view the public as just moronic lemmings who will automatically agree to your "rub marks are normal" and your "wash the marks off with soap" baloney. I'm fully aware that your bean counters are saying to do this because its a numbers game and this will push some people away; people you won't have to cover. But in light of all of that, one would think that you self important, highly paid brainiacs would come up with a solution in the mean time. The only solutions I have seen have been the TSB's which come out suspiciously just after a member on Camaro 5 does some redesigning and sees where the problem is.

In addition, did your bean counters think about the future 5th gen Camaro's? I have seen multiple situations where people have decided against buying a Camaro vert because of the problems. Well documented possible customers........geez you folks can't see the forest for the trees.

Anyway, this has now gone on too long and I know you won't read the whole thing (and I certainly wouldn't expect a reply because that might implicate you toward responsibility!), but I just felt I should make my position known.

Sincerely, Mark Bullett

[Eli]

Nicely done. Tad bit of vinegar but I think its necessary to convey your level of frustration.

[bulllett]

Originally Posted by Eli

Nicely done. Tad bit of vinegar but I think its necessary to convey your level of frustration.

Agreed, and intentional.

We all know I'm not getting any response from Mr Holder, so I figured I need to make a pointed impression in writing. It would have read differently if I felt there was a possibility of give and take conversation that might work toward a solution. But GM and all their lackey's have given me no reason to believe that they want to be reasonable or understanding.

[evlar]

Nice job, someone needs to keep hounding them.

What should happen in my opinion is we should see what everyone's appetite is for a unified letter. We can check on here and on the top problems facebook page to get an electronic endorsement that we will draft a certified letter to be sent to GM headquarters representing all of us with these camaro top issues. We can get a list of case numbers and photographs to send as appendicies.

We will present this letter online and have everyone approve electronically. When we mail it certified to GM we'll include their names and VINS so they know that we are real owners. We will demand that GM respond in writing, admitting to the flawed design on these tops and use information like Bullett's above from the video to support our claim that the quality is not GM guaranteed. We will also demand that GM either grant us a buyback or extended 7 year, 75,000 mile warranty at our choice.

If GM does not agree to these terms for everyone signing, then we will have to consider more serious of a response, not to exclude a class action lawsuit. Which, in my opinion, we have enough cases to seek council on should we desire to go that route.

What are your thoughts?

[pocketcthulhu]

While I don't feel I have had any issues with my top I can't say i won't and I had a number of issues with my sky's top over the 3 years I had it so I'm holding my breath with the camaro top. (but it still wasn't enough to keep me from buying a convertible)

[oldfriend]

I don't have a convertible but i understand the problems that you guys are having , in most cases it's a numbers game , like if most of you with this issues and others get together like EVLAR says , and push the issue to the top of GM they will have no way out , but admit that there is a problem, and actually do something about it , even if they have to ask for any ideas from the forum member that have solved the issue for himself .It is a shame that GM is pissing away the potential that this cars have for the long term .

[Allanski]

I firmly believe that if you have a top problem and take it to the dealer GM will make it right. I also understand (and believe me I am not a patient person) if we wait a bit more there will be good replacements for those who need it.

If your dealer is brushing you off follow protocol, note with pics and go to another dealer. Also GM ombudsman is around the forum and I am sure you can find how to contact him.

Good luck and have some patience, I think the only warranty I have left due to modifications is my top!

[bulllett]

Originally Posted by Allanski

I firmly believe that if you have a top problem and take it to the dealer GM will make it right. I also understand (and believe me I am not a patient person) if we wait a bit more there will be good replacements for those who need it.

If your dealer is brushing you off follow protocol, note with pics and go to another dealer. Also GM ombudsman is around the forum and I am sure you can find how to contact him.

Good luck and have some patience, I think the only warranty I have left due to modifications is my top!

I started to type a reply itemizing points but then I thought better.

Let's just leave it at; While I respect your opinion, I think your view is a bit optimistic and "pie in the sky" for the problems, incompetence and insults we have encountered.

[Ultrakiller]

Originally Posted by bulllett

I started to type a reply itemizing points but then I thought better.

Let's just leave it at; While I respect your opinion, I think your view is a bit optimistic and "pie in the sky" for the problems, incompetence and insults we have encountered.

Ya know after watching the video, and with some 50 cases read days before, I'm reconsidering that I will stick only with the coupe with a sunroof, or get a convertible Corvette, which (hope so, no idea on this) does not present such problems.

[evlar]

Knowing what I know now, I would not purchase another one of these convertibles. I would have gone coupe with sunroof or mustang convertible.

[95birdible]

Over 200 members in the facebook group with top problems. Also, someone put a petition over there if you would like to stop by and sign it.

[hawk02]

Originally Posted by Ultrakiller

Ya know after watching the video, and with some 50 cases read days before, I'm reconsidering that I will stick only with the coupe with a sunroof, or get a convertible Corvette, which (hope so, no idea on this) does not present such problems.

Corvette convertibles don't seem to be immune from rub marks either.

[Tally Ho]

Originally Posted by hawk02

Corvette convertibles don't seem to be immune from rub marks either.

They are not immune. My car does not look nearly as bad as this one does. My marks are actually shiny and do go away after it's washed. The only top issue I've had on my 06 was the headliner got pinched in the mechanism and tore a hole in it. It was covered under warranty and outsourced to an independent upholstery shop. No issues since.

My 98 Vette was a different story. The back window popped out and required a new top. I'm in touch with the current owner and so far no issues with the new top.

The only issue I had with my 89 Vette was the plastic back window. The AZ sun took it's toll despite being garaged and made the plastic brittle. This, too, required a new top.

As far as the exterior fabric, all three of these Vettes had/have the black StaFast material. I never got any holes, tears, etc. on the exterior. These were/are all manual tops as well.

[jjas0n]

I'm working with the BBB first and then Lemon Law next. My car has been out of service since May 11 for top problems. That's 25 days and counting so far on this ONE ISSUE. I'm well over 30 days total - the magic number for Lemon Law in Washington State.

If there is some action to take against GM, I'm interested. Their Customer Relations Group has been encouraging me to cease relations and I'm tired of making payments on a car I cannot drive and not getting any assistance from GM.

My summary, so far, is on this thread: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220255

Jason