Are Synthetic Oil's trully Synthetic ? - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Andy-AMSOIL · 09-20-2014, 04:35 PM

Ok so lets start with the 90s where Mobil 1 challenged Castrol before the National Advertising Division of the BBB, because Castrol introduced a Group 111 oil and marketed it as full synthetic, Castrol prevailed the dispute and mobil lost.

The issue here that you as the customer will run into is that when you buy oil from Wallmart or your auto parts store you don't have a clue as to what you are getting, even though the bottle says Full Synthetic oil you don't know if its truly a full synthetic or not or if its only 50% synthetic base stock,, why because there is no law or agreement that states a full synthetic cant be made from petroleum inferior additives.

In fact there is noting from preventing oil manufacturers from labeling an inferior group 1 or 2 oil as synthetic,,, and be assured I happens,, go to the store and find some of those so called Synthetics for $3 bucks a quart, you can rest assured that oil is not even close to a synthetic blend although is being marketed as synthetic....
the game is about to change though with the way companies are allowed to label their products and once this happens the boys will be separated from the men

You need to be careful specially if you car is turbo'd or has a blower or even an N/A car running high horsepower,,, full synthetic oils in my book should only be PAO or ESTER oils, good Group 3 or Group 4.. these oils are design to stand up to anything (Heat, Friction, thermal breakdown, shear stable, exotic fuels and will last much longer in your engine 2 times or 3 times longer)
Another point is that most cars are now requiring from factory a 5W20 and a 0W20... oh and get ready the GF-6 requirements are coming out very soon here with an 0W16 weight oil coming down the pipes and you can rest assured all new cars will use GF-6 oils because the drive for fuel economy is huge and the only way to save fuel is by reducing engine internal friction... its pretty cool what the lab at AMSOIL is doing for the GF-6, this oil is a challenge because of how light it is and making sure that no metal to metal contact is important, the other important characteristic of this oil will be to reduce "fluid friction" you may have never heard of fluid friction but in this case we are reducing fluid friction and engine internal friction.

So at the end of the day, for those who think an oil is an oil the answer is a BIG NO, not all synthetics are created equal and this lays true for any products we as consumers purchase.

Mouse6.2 · 09-20-2014, 08:40 PM

At least now with GM running 0w-20 in their new 2014 and up trucks, that oil is a PAO. It is my understanding that that specific weight can not be accomplished by using basic crude oil stocks. So for the most part any of these lighter oils will be PAO based or ESTER based oils.

Andy-AMSOIL · 09-20-2014, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse6.2

At least now with GM running 0w-20 in their new 2014 and up trucks, that oil is a PAO. It is my understanding that that specific weight can not be accomplished by using basic crude oil stocks. So for the most part any of these lighter oils will be PAO based or ESTER based oils.

One would think so but the answer is no. Like I said before oil manufacturers are cheating they are slinging the synthetic word around like candy.... There are no legal ramifications for doing so. 0w20 can also be refined from petroleum and be called full synthetic.

Best way to mitigate this for now is to make sure you know who you are buying your oil from.

Oh and how do I know GM is getting a full synthetic? I dont, is GM truly that caring and responsible. I personally know how big companies behave. As long as GM get a half decent oil whether it's truly a synthetic or not I don't know then their engines should not have an issue but I may still not be getting the great benefits of a true full synthetic.

This topic is getting hotter by the second because this is going to uncover companies that are cheating the customers. ..

spyderbuddy · 09-20-2014, 09:24 PM

Dexos approved oils only in my camaro

TommyTheCat · 09-20-2014, 10:42 PM

I have a customer that strongly believes in AMSOIL and goes 12 or 15 thousand miles without an oil change, although he frequently checks it and adds oil. I guess that is what they recommend for the specific oil he buys, which I know he pays out the ass for and also uses a bigger filter.

He stands by it, claiming it's saved him money in the long run on all three of his Dodge Intrepids and on his Chrysler 300M

But we have done engines at least once on each of his cars and had seal problems with the engines. I can't say it's AMSOIL's fault but I think any company advertising that the oil doesn't need to be changed less than 12,000 miles is asking for a bit of trouble

That being said I think the AMSOIL is a great product, his oil is still pretty clean when he comes in but I'm not sure how much he's burning/leaking and adding before he comes in for us to change it. I'm sure it's cleaning than what I use or what most others use, but it isn't for everyday people who don't even know how to check their oil.

I've been using NAPA Synthetic but never really looked into finding out if it's a full synthetic or not. Can't really complain as long as it's clean since I'm not pushing a lot of power anyways, and I get it real cheap compared to regular customers.

shibbs · 09-20-2014, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyTheCat

I have a customer that strongly believes in AMSOIL and goes 12 or 15 thousand miles without an oil change, although he frequently checks it and adds oil. I guess that is what they recommend for the specific oil he buys, which I know he pays out the ass for and also uses a bigger filter.

He stands by it, claiming it's saved him money in the long run on all three of his Dodge Intrepids and on his Chrysler 300M

But we have done engines at least once on each of his cars and had seal problems with the engines. I can't say it's AMSOIL's fault but I think any company advertising that the oil doesn't need to be changed less than 12,000 miles is asking for a bit of trouble

That being said I think the AMSOIL is a great product, his oil is still pretty clean when he comes in but I'm not sure how much he's burning/leaking and adding before he comes in for us to change it. I'm sure it's cleaning than what I use or what most others use, but it isn't for everyday people who don't even know how to check their oil.

I've been using NAPA Synthetic but never really looked into finding out if it's a full synthetic or not. Can't really complain as long as it's clean since I'm not pushing a lot of power anyways, and I get it real cheap compared to regular customers.

But Chrysler's never been able to design an engine that can stay together!

Andy-AMSOIL · 09-20-2014, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TommyTheCat

I have a customer that strongly believes in AMSOIL and goes 12 or 15 thousand miles without an oil change, although he frequently checks it and adds oil. I guess that is what they recommend for the specific oil he buys, which I know he pays out the ass for and also uses a bigger filter.

He stands by it, claiming it's saved him money in the long run on all three of his Dodge Intrepids and on his Chrysler 300M

But we have done engines at least once on each of his cars and had seal problems with the engines. I can't say it's AMSOIL's fault but I think any company advertising that the oil doesn't need to be changed less than 12,000 miles is asking for a bit of trouble

first of i am not sure you have done the math yet.. 7 or 8 bucks a qt for AMSOIL for signature series compared to 6 or 7 bucks for the good mobil 1 product is not much of a difference.

We are at a point with PAO or ESTER synthetics that to argue that 12,000 miles is to much to run them is not an argument any longer... these high quality synthetics are designed with high detergents and dispersant with a TBN of 12.0 .. they will go for much longer if you filter them well.

The cool thing is that most of us change the oil around 5k so we know that there is still plenty umf left in the oil.

Andy-AMSOIL · 09-20-2014, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spyderbuddy

Dexos approved oils only in my camaro

I'd like to see an in depth lab test on this oil to find out if it's truly a real synthetic.

Todd in Vancouver · 09-20-2014, 11:31 PM

Because I work in the Auto Industry I do get to attend a number of conventions and Automotive technological advancement launches and seminars. From the latest we have seen the updates that Pennzoil has come out with in their Pure Plus Technology line is producing a much cleaner base to start with. In the tests that I have seen Pennzoil has been the highest amount of synthetic addative on base product of any oil company offering out there.

The tests have shown how much cleaner Ultra with Pure Plus is keeping internal components. Now having said this I'm open to any improvements I can make and especially in the area of Oil Tempurature and stability from longer track sessions with my ZL1.

I mean no offence to anyone and am not trying to sway anyone's use or aleigence to any particular product but has anyone seen any comparisons against Ultra Pure Plus? I'd really like to see some recent comparisons and data.

http://www.pennzoil.ca/motor-oil/pen...tic-motor-oil/

.

Avenging Orange · 09-21-2014, 12:17 AM

Ahhh, still glad I stick with good old fashioned dino oil.

SuperchargedStealth · 09-21-2014, 12:49 AM

I'm currently using VR-1 through recommendation of the actual engine builder. Not the install shop. I've read the reports between their 10w-30 and your Dominator 10w-30. I see subtle differences in some aspects and bigger differences in others. The representative of the builder stressed the importance of zinc and phosphorus additives. I don't understand the importance of it to a point. Could you briefly explain it? Also, in your reports, I didn't see the amount you add. Is there somewhere I could view it? I've become more aware of the importance of oil since I've gone with a high HP motor, so I'd like to become more knowledgeable of it.

Mouse6.2 · 09-21-2014, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avenging Orange

Ahhh, still glad I stick with good old fashioned dino oil.

So with your post and what you state in your signature, I take it you still use 8 track tapes to listen to music and Beta tapes to watch recorded shows on. Not to mention the use of hand tools over power tools since technology is all hype.

Andy-AMSOIL · 09-21-2014, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avenging Orange

Ahhh, still glad I stick with good old fashioned dino oil.

I wouldn't necessarily be so proud of that.... you are leaving the advantages of synthetic oils... better shear stability, less oil consumption down the road, better much better friction additives less metal to metal contact.

Dyno oil is just a disadvantage to the modern engine. .. There is going to come a point where dyno oils won't be able to keep up for example the new GF-6 specs.

Andy-AMSOIL · 09-21-2014, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperchargedStealth

I'm currently using VR-1 through recommendation of the actual engine builder. Not the install shop. I've read the reports between their 10w-30 and your Dominator 10w-30. I see subtle differences in some aspects and bigger differences in others. The representative of the builder stressed the importance of zinc and phosphorus additives. I don't understand the importance of it to a point. Could you briefly explain it? Also, in your reports, I didn't see the amount you add. Is there somewhere I could view it? I've become more aware of the importance of oil since I've gone with a high HP motor, so I'd like to become more knowledgeable of it.

I would be more than glad to talk on the phone to explain.

In the mean time: why is zinc and phos also known as ZDDP, think of the zinc like small little ball bearings in between all these moving parts specially for flat tappet systems, phos I also a rust inhibitor. Having to much of ZDDP is said to no be beneficial but it a theory having to little is said to be harmful for moving parts and Mobil 1 has gotten into a lot of trouble when they reduced the ZDDP in some of their formulas and did not tell their performance consumers, turbos and motors where having problems.

We don't advertise our antiwear additives to the public.. these are top secrete

09-20-2014, 04:35 PM	#1
Andy-AMSOIL Drives: bicycle Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Digging for oil Posts: 375	Are Synthetic Oil's trully Synthetic ? Ok so lets start with the 90s where Mobil 1 challenged Castrol before the National Advertising Division of the BBB, because Castrol introduced a Group 111 oil and marketed it as full synthetic, Castrol prevailed the dispute and mobil lost. The issue here that you as the customer will run into is that when you buy oil from Wallmart or your auto parts store you don't have a clue as to what you are getting, even though the bottle says Full Synthetic oil you don't know if its truly a full synthetic or not or if its only 50% synthetic base stock,, why because there is no law or agreement that states a full synthetic cant be made from petroleum inferior additives. In fact there is noting from preventing oil manufacturers from labeling an inferior group 1 or 2 oil as synthetic,,, and be assured I happens,, go to the store and find some of those so called Synthetics for $3 bucks a quart, you can rest assured that oil is not even close to a synthetic blend although is being marketed as synthetic.... the game is about to change though with the way companies are allowed to label their products and once this happens the boys will be separated from the men You need to be careful specially if you car is turbo'd or has a blower or even an N/A car running high horsepower,,, full synthetic oils in my book should only be PAO or ESTER oils, good Group 3 or Group 4.. these oils are design to stand up to anything (Heat, Friction, thermal breakdown, shear stable, exotic fuels and will last much longer in your engine 2 times or 3 times longer) Another point is that most cars are now requiring from factory a 5W20 and a 0W20... oh and get ready the GF-6 requirements are coming out very soon here with an 0W16 weight oil coming down the pipes and you can rest assured all new cars will use GF-6 oils because the drive for fuel economy is huge and the only way to save fuel is by reducing engine internal friction... its pretty cool what the lab at AMSOIL is doing for the GF-6, this oil is a challenge because of how light it is and making sure that no metal to metal contact is important, the other important characteristic of this oil will be to reduce "fluid friction" you may have never heard of fluid friction but in this case we are reducing fluid friction and engine internal friction. So at the end of the day, for those who think an oil is an oil the answer is a BIG NO, not all synthetics are created equal and this lays true for any products we as consumers purchase.

09-20-2014, 09:24 PM	#4
spyderbuddy Drives: 2010 RS Inferno Orange Metallic Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Albany, Ga. Posts: 3,473 View My Garage	Dexos approved oils only in my camaro __________________ 2024 Camaro/Panther Emblem,Hot Wheels Emblems, Hot Wheels Door Sills and Floor Mats, Morimoto Fog Lights, PCP Hideaway Headlight Covers, BBK Headers & High Flow Cats, ZL1 Add-ons Wicker Bill, TL1/ZL1 Hood Insert, Gen5 DIY Frameless Mirror, ABL Dash Lighting & My link Navigation, Blacked out Rear Bowtie, all Sylvania led Turn Signals, Ceramic Window Tint By Nicks, MBRP Exhaust tips, GEN5 DIY Virginia Legal DRL Harness, Painted Brake Calipers, Vittesse Throttle Controller & Paddle Shifter Heritage Grill, Manual Shifter Boot, CNC Throttle Body, Trifecta Tune, Trunk Black out and Side Grills,

09-20-2014, 11:31 PM	#9
Todd in Vancouver Drives: 2014 ZL1 Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 1,538 View My Garage	Because I work in the Auto Industry I do get to attend a number of conventions and Automotive technological advancement launches and seminars. From the latest we have seen the updates that Pennzoil has come out with in their Pure Plus Technology line is producing a much cleaner base to start with. In the tests that I have seen Pennzoil has been the highest amount of synthetic addative on base product of any oil company offering out there. The tests have shown how much cleaner Ultra with Pure Plus is keeping internal components. Now having said this I'm open to any improvements I can make and especially in the area of Oil Tempurature and stability from longer track sessions with my ZL1. I mean no offence to anyone and am not trying to sway anyone's use or aleigence to any particular product but has anyone seen any comparisons against Ultra Pure Plus? I'd really like to see some recent comparisons and data. http://www.pennzoil.ca/motor-oil/pen...tic-motor-oil/ . __________________ Todd in Vancouver '14 ZL1 Camaro '67 Camaro SS Pro-tour in process How hard can it be... Check out my other build http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/9...ject-Obsession

09-21-2014, 12:17 AM	#10
Avenging Orange Drives: 2010 Inferno Orange 2SS/RS Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Clermont, IN Posts: 3,297	Ahhh, still glad I stick with good old fashioned dino oil. __________________ 2010 Inferno Orange 2SS/RS M6 Black Leather, Sun Roof, OBX Headers, Borla touring axle back, Cold Air Inductions CAI , non synthetic fluids, BMR total bushing upgrade/1" lowering springs, DSE 32mm rear sway bar. GM fe4 shocks/struts/LCA's, AAM 3.91 diff, Vertini RFS1.8 20x9 +30. Conti ExtremeContact Sport 275/35/20. sjm autoprod ABL dash kit. Mike Norris tuned 413/419. Avenging Orange: 43 years of not buying into the Hype........and damn proud of it!! https://youtu.be/9JD9it6SmB8 https://youtu.be/xmelTlEzI34 KICKING CANCERS ASS SINCE 2015!!

09-21-2014, 12:49 AM	#11
SuperchargedStealth Drives: '11 Camaro Supercharged Convertible Join Date: May 2014 Location: NJ Posts: 481	I'm currently using VR-1 through recommendation of the actual engine builder. Not the install shop. I've read the reports between their 10w-30 and your Dominator 10w-30. I see subtle differences in some aspects and bigger differences in others. The representative of the builder stressed the importance of zinc and phosphorus additives. I don't understand the importance of it to a point. Could you briefly explain it? Also, in your reports, I didn't see the amount you add. Is there somewhere I could view it? I've become more aware of the importance of oil since I've gone with a high HP motor, so I'd like to become more knowledgeable of it. __________________ 2011 Triple Black SS convertible, LSX 427, PRC 260cc heads, Callies Ultra Billet Rods, Wiseco -20 cc piston, Callies Dragon Slayer crank, Strange Dana 60 rear w/3.73 gear ratio and driveshaft, Pfadt coilovers, Pfadt sway bars, Pfadt trailing arms, Pfadt tie rods, Pfadt subframe bushings, Vortech YSi with wastegate and twin BOV, Haltech ECU, Mantic 9000 Twin Clutch, ALKY control meth system with dual nozzle, Squash twin fuel pumps, ACS T3 ports, VIS Terminator Hood, Seibon ZL style lip.

09-20-2014, 08:40 PM	#2
Mouse6.2 Drives: 2013 2SS/RS M6 NPP Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: North Carolina Posts: 340	At least now with GM running 0w-20 in their new 2014 and up trucks, that oil is a PAO. It is my understanding that that specific weight can not be accomplished by using basic crude oil stocks. So for the most part any of these lighter oils will be PAO based or ESTER based oils.

09-20-2014, 10:42 PM	#5
TommyTheCat SHKE BKE Drives: 2013 Camaro Join Date: May 2014 Location: SoCal Posts: 3,105	I have a customer that strongly believes in AMSOIL and goes 12 or 15 thousand miles without an oil change, although he frequently checks it and adds oil. I guess that is what they recommend for the specific oil he buys, which I know he pays out the ass for and also uses a bigger filter. He stands by it, claiming it's saved him money in the long run on all three of his Dodge Intrepids and on his Chrysler 300M But we have done engines at least once on each of his cars and had seal problems with the engines. I can't say it's AMSOIL's fault but I think any company advertising that the oil doesn't need to be changed less than 12,000 miles is asking for a bit of trouble That being said I think the AMSOIL is a great product, his oil is still pretty clean when he comes in but I'm not sure how much he's burning/leaking and adding before he comes in for us to change it. I'm sure it's cleaning than what I use or what most others use, but it isn't for everyday people who don't even know how to check their oil. I've been using NAPA Synthetic but never really looked into finding out if it's a full synthetic or not. Can't really complain as long as it's clean since I'm not pushing a lot of power anyways, and I get it real cheap compared to regular customers.