Factory mufflers facts

[PieNsky]

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...light=shorties

I was looking to see what gain the shorties had on the V8 and came across this thread. Two things stand out. One, it seems that there isn't much restriction with the factory mufflers. With that said, there has been advertised 15 hp increase on the V6 by some manufactures with their aftermarket exhaust . Two, those 4 cats look the same as what we have.

[mr_desmo]

Piensky theses mufflers are from the ls3 v8; the l99 are different ....v6 mufflers are definitely different (no one have cut v6 mufflers from what i know...should be interesting if one is up to the task!)

[piam101]

Originally Posted by mr_desmo

Piensky theses mufflers are from the ls3 v8; the l99 are different ....v6 mufflers are definitely different (no one have cut v6 mufflers from what i know...should be interesting if one is up to the task!)

V6 mufflers are cut in this thread.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31844

[scrming]

Originally Posted by piam101

V6 mufflers are cut in this thread.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31844

mine were cut off... but were not cut open... didn't go through the whole thread but I don't remember anyone cutting a V6 muffler open..

[efpardo]

I recall seeing the inside of the mufflers, just don't know where. It seemed like a straite pipe with some holes cut into them, and some steel wool wrap. The muffler seemed like just a box to soften the sound.

[PieNsky]

From the Cadillac forum of last year that was linked to in another thread:

.
Thank you all for your patience and we are happy to announce the results are in! Attached are dyno graphs from our 2008 CTS 3.6L DI RWD.
Baseline run: vehicle produced 263.0 rwhp and 241.7 lbs/tq.
Adding the new Corsa Exhaust power jumped to 281.1 rwhp and 255.3 lbs/tq. for an increase of 18.1 rwhp and 13.6 lbs/tq


Their intake gave another 13hp for a total hp gain of 31.


Someone on here has the Corsa exhaust installed and 5hp gain, I think. Makes me wonder what is up with the difference.
As most us already have read, the ECM supposedly will take away any gain. I sent this to a well known CAI in an e-mail to inquire if this is true. Their reply was the initial dyno's gain results were from leaning the AF mixture which was later reset through the drive cycles. That the CAIs were not making much gain and lost the initial lean gain making it appear that the ECM was robbing any mods.
This CAI company that I had e-mailed has not released a CAI yet but are going to release their V8 soon and the V6 will follow.
What would be nice if a V6 CAI comparison could be made like it is being performed for the SS so we would get dyno #s from an independent source.

[scrming]

Originally Posted by PieNsky

From the Cadillac forum of last year that was linked to in another thread:

.
Thank you all for your patience and we are happy to announce the results are in! Attached are dyno graphs from our 2008 CTS 3.6L DI RWD.
Baseline run: vehicle produced 263.0 rwhp and 241.7 lbs/tq.
Adding the new Corsa Exhaust power jumped to 281.1 rwhp and 255.3 lbs/tq. for an increase of 18.1 rwhp and 13.6 lbs/tq


Their intake gave another 13hp for a total hp gain of 31.


Someone on here has the Corsa exhaust installed and 5hp gain, I think. Makes me wonder what is up with the difference.
As most us already have read, the ECM supposedly will take away any gain. I sent this to a well known CAI in an e-mail to inquire if this is true. Their reply was the initial dyno's gain results were from leaning the AF mixture which was later reset through the drive cycles. That the CAIs were not making much gain and lost the initial lean gain making it appear that the ECM was robbing any mods.
This CAI company that I had e-mailed has not released a CAI yet but are going to release their V8 soon and the V6 will follow.
What would be nice if a V6 CAI comparison could be made like it is being performed for the SS so we would get dyno #s from an independent source.

Back before I knew much I bought a CAI for my V6 Mustang... as it turned out they basically setup the CAI so it would lean the car out to make some extra power... The Mustang however uses only narrow band O2 sensors and was not adaptive... The LLT uses wide bands... so yeah I see how the LLT could be much more adaptive and bring the AF back to specs...

To really do this right would need to put a bung in the exhaust and start doing dyno pulls and monitor the AF... hmmmmmm..... LOL

[SYA]

Originally Posted by PieNsky

From the Cadillac forum of last year that was linked to in another thread:

.
Thank you all for your patience and we are happy to announce the results are in! Attached are dyno graphs from our 2008 CTS 3.6L DI RWD.
Baseline run: vehicle produced 263.0 rwhp and 241.7 lbs/tq.
Adding the new Corsa Exhaust power jumped to 281.1 rwhp and 255.3 lbs/tq. for an increase of 18.1 rwhp and 13.6 lbs/tq


Their intake gave another 13hp for a total hp gain of 31.


Someone on here has the Corsa exhaust installed and 5hp gain, I think. Makes me wonder what is up with the difference.
As most us already have read, the ECM supposedly will take away any gain. I sent this to a well known CAI in an e-mail to inquire if this is true. Their reply was the initial dyno's gain results were from leaning the AF mixture which was later reset through the drive cycles. That the CAIs were not making much gain and lost the initial lean gain making it appear that the ECM was robbing any mods.
This CAI company that I had e-mailed has not released a CAI yet but are going to release their V8 soon and the V6 will follow.
What would be nice if a V6 CAI comparison could be made like it is being performed for the SS so we would get dyno #s from an independent source.

Why would a company that intends to release a mod they claim will do nothing, shoot them selves in the foot and openly admit it?

I'm personally very curious about all these claims that the ECU will negate any increase on the engine... not making accusations on anyone, but I have yet to find anything on the net that proves this true...

If anyone has any solid proof of this claim... please let me know...

Thanks

[tjd24]

Originally Posted by PieNsky

From the Cadillac forum of last year that was linked to in another thread:

.
Thank you all for your patience and we are happy to announce the results are in! Attached are dyno graphs from our 2008 CTS 3.6L DI RWD.
Baseline run: vehicle produced 263.0 rwhp and 241.7 lbs/tq.
Adding the new Corsa Exhaust power jumped to 281.1 rwhp and 255.3 lbs/tq. for an increase of 18.1 rwhp and 13.6 lbs/tq


Their intake gave another 13hp for a total hp gain of 31.


Someone on here has the Corsa exhaust installed and 5hp gain, I think. Makes me wonder what is up with the difference.
As most us already have read, the ECM supposedly will take away any gain. I sent this to a well known CAI in an e-mail to inquire if this is true. Their reply was the initial dyno's gain results were from leaning the AF mixture which was later reset through the drive cycles. That the CAIs were not making much gain and lost the initial lean gain making it appear that the ECM was robbing any mods.
This CAI company that I had e-mailed has not released a CAI yet but are going to release their V8 soon and the V6 will follow.
What would be nice if a V6 CAI comparison could be made like it is being performed for the SS so we would get dyno #s from an independent source.

When I asked New Era if they were making a Ram Air for the V^ I got this response:

"The PCM you have will result in no power gain after 2-3 drive cycles, it relearns airflow and will close the throttle body accordingly to reduce airflow into the engine after an increase is seen. Mike Frumusa, Sales & Tech Manager, www.neweraperformanceparts.com, sales@neweraperformanceparts.com"

Another member sent this on-to Airaid for their response and experience as they're doing dyno tests of their V6 CAI - he asked if after several cycles the same happens... will post their reply when received

[scrming]

The other thing to remember is this car uses a Torque Based Engine Management System... The computer doesn't care how much power you could possibly make, it is going to limit how much it will LET it make...

Basically:

1) You push on the gas pedal lets say 1/2 way down...
2) Computer says, "oh, gas peddle is at 50% so driver wants X amount of torque..."
3) Computer opens throttle body, sets timing, fires injectors, blah blah blah to deliver X amount of torque...
4) You push the gas pedal all the way to the floor...
5) Computer says "Oh, driver wants the max amount of torque which is programmed at Y amount of torque"
6) Once again computer opens throttle body, timing, etc. to make Y amount of torque even though you have added bolt-ons to make Y+++ amount of torque...

Again this is very simplistic overview... and this is at least how I've bee told it works... not sure if things have been lost in translation...

Also.. here is a prime example... this is from my Mustang which was also had a Torque management system. Look at how much extra torque I got from just a simple tune!




A lot of those gains were do simply from removing the torque limiter....

[faninc]

Would be good if Dave at Airaid could have their techs explain why the PCM will not negate the gains after a few drive cycles on the Bosch unit with Airaid CAI and dispell what new Era tech is saying to be the cae on the V6?

Should be black or white, it does or does not rob the gains after several drive cycles?

[tradosaurus]

I'll cut my 2LT factory mufflers open after I install my MRT axle back mufflers if everyone will make a $5.00 donation to my paypal account!

[TJ91]

has anyone here dynoed their v6 mannual and get 263?
Yeah i know i was supposed to dyno my car bt then i had to pay my parking tickets which was 150 and the guys with the dyno were asking 120 to dyno my car....so i never went to them

[faninc]

Air Intake Information for GM's 3.6L V6 From Airaid tech courtesy of David at Airaid

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The new Camaro direct injection system is advanced. The PCM is capable of identifying sensor readings that are outside of acceptable parameters and will compensate. The ability to compensate for sensor readings will allow the PCM to function with what is assumed to be degrading components. Sensor readings such as Mass Air Sensor frequency are expected to be within a particular range when sampled along with other engine sensors readings to include engine RPM, throttle position, etc. A component or group of components that cause sensor reading to be outside of acceptable range will lead to compensation settings from the PCM. The malfunction indicator lamp can illuminate if sensor readings (or combination of readings) are beyond these acceptable limits.

The PCMs ability to compensate results in restored functionality (or loss of temporary performance gains). Vehicle modifications can result in temporary “improvements” that are later adjusted back to original performance if those modifications result in sensor readings that are outside of the expected parameters. For example, installing an intake system with less restriction (more air flow) and mass air sensor mounting location that does not allow for proper sampling of the additional air flow. This will force the PCM to make necessary adjustments until it receives acceptable readings or combination of sensor readings. These “adjustments” result in original performance levels or an illuminated MIL if requirements are met.

An intake system that is properly designed to provide less restriction (more air flow) while allowing the mass air sensor to sample the incoming air flow accurately (as it did in the original intake) should not result in the PCM re-learning or compensating. The additional air flow resulting from less restriction should be measured from the mass air sensor accurately as the correct frequency reading per volume of air. Additional air flow should continue to be sampled accurately from the mass air sensor until the additional amount of air flow exceeds the functional limits of the mass air sensor or the allowable parameters of the PCM.

An unmodified Camaro will perform better at sea level than it will at 7000 feet elevation. This is due to the more dense air that is available at sea level. The mass air sensor will accurately read the difference in air density and the PCM will process accordingly (not relearn the performance back out) because the other PCM readings and functionality are within allowable limits. A properly modified Camaro will respond the same with additional air flow being measured accurately while maintaining sensor readings that are accurate and within allowable spec of the PCM.

The challenge for aftermarket manufacturers is to develop performance systems that provide added air flow while retaining sensor functionality within their design limits. Our staff of engineers and ASE certified techs utilize our in-house chassis dyno, flow bench, mass air sensor flow bench, rapid prototype equipment and much more to insure our products function and fit as intended. Our success has resulted in the consultation of performance intake systems to OEM manufacturers.
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