Wideband O2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Bell040 · 03-24-2010, 06:13 PM

Anyone running a wideband O2 sensor? ... the guys on the tuner forums think that it is crazy to try to do a tune without one.

Is it in place of an original O2 or did you get a new connection port (bung) welded in? pics? Dual widebands?

Which side do put it on?

What brand did you go with?

Was it worth the effort?

Meister@Torq · 03-25-2010, 10:18 AM

You cant tune a car without a wide band, period. The best, most accurate wide band available is the NGX AFX

We sell these and the innovate, which comes in a nicer package for display

Bell040 · 03-28-2010, 11:00 AM

So how is Janettey, Vector, ect. tuning with the SCT, Diablo, ect. ?? ... I assume that most people that buy the hansheld tuners do not use a wideband.

So the better question may be... who has a tune with a handheld tuner? ... did you use a wideband?

Bell040 · 03-28-2010, 09:38 PM

So what is the deal with the widebands?

I have read a couple of posts like Meister's, and it seems like everyone just ignores it.... There are hundreds of posts about people getting generic "93 octane" tunes and custom email tunes......... and none about wideband O2 sensors.

do I need a wideband or not?

does it depend on which tuner I get? which mods I have? how much HP gain I want?

cheaplabor · 03-28-2010, 11:06 PM

here's a link to how we tune from datalogging with a wideband o2 that is mobile and connects to our hp tuner through the air conditioning pressure curcuit.i know it sounds stupid but it works very well!a full throttle sweep from idle to max rpm in 4th gear on a vacant highway is all thats needed to produce a tune, its cool when a dyno isn't available

this link will show you how to do it yourself

http://www.trafficjams.ca/Performanc...ngProducts.htm

DSteck · 03-28-2010, 11:24 PM

All the canned tunes you see are a guess at getting your tune right, granted some of them are based on LOTS of data collected from vehicles with your exact configuration. These companies develop a calibration on a car using brand ABC intake and brand XYZ exhaust, and if you have those parts, they send you a tune. They might also have a tune for another brand intake, etc. HOPEFULLY those companies are using a wideband to develop these canned tunes. When you flash one of these, you're banking on your setup matching the setup that the tune was developed on.

Personally, I'm a large fan of just using a wideband O2 sensor. You can add an extra bung, or replace one of the factory front narrowband O2 sensors. I'm not getting into the detail of how to log it, but a wideband is the way to ensure proper wide open throttle fueling. Narrowbands are great for part throttle calibration... but worthless for WOT. Anybody that tells you otherwise is a fool. A wideband allows a TRULY custom tune to be developed for you, and allows your tune to be exactly what it needs to be for your car.

Bell040 · 03-29-2010, 12:37 AM

Thanks DSteck!!!

I have been trying to wrap my head around this for a while. Few lingering questions:

1) Wouldn't the ECM freak out if you removed a narrowband O2 sensor? ... I guess you couldn't be in closed loop control.

2) The "custom tune" with most of these handhelds requires you to drive around for a while doing different RPM shifts through the gears and cruising for a set time, then emailing them your log file... seems like they are doing more than just giving you a canned tune. What do you think they are doing with the log data? ... just looking at the fuel trims and guessing at the AFR?

3) would you suggest using a wideband with a handheld to a Newb (engineer Newb)? ... WB with HPtuners? .... would I be watching the AFR gauge at the different RPMs and changing a number somewhere (in a MAF table) to get it to a desired AFR at each RPM?

*The_Blur* · 03-29-2010, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSteck

All the canned tunes you see are a guess at getting your tune right, granted some of them are based on LOTS of data collected from vehicles with your exact configuration. These companies develop a calibration on a car using brand ABC intake and brand XYZ exhaust, and if you have those parts, they send you a tune. They might also have a tune for another brand intake, etc. HOPEFULLY those companies are using a wideband to develop these canned tunes. When you flash one of these, you're banking on your setup matching the setup that the tune was developed on.

Personally, I'm a large fan of just using a wideband O2 sensor. You can add an extra bung, or replace one of the factory front narrowband O2 sensors. I'm not getting into the detail of how to log it, but a wideband is the way to ensure proper wide open throttle fueling. Narrowbands are great for part throttle calibration... but worthless for WOT. Anybody that tells you otherwise is a fool. A wideband allows a TRULY custom tune to be developed for you, and allows your tune to be exactly what it needs to be for your car.

This is possibly the most educated, explanatory response on the board on the topic of tuning.

Keep up the good work.

DSteck · 03-29-2010, 10:32 AM

Bell:

1) Not really, but yes, you force the car into open loop.

2) Yes to the last question. If you're smart and good, you can get pretty close like that.

3) Handhelds won't give you access to the MAF or VE which is where the corrections need to be made. I am a fan of HP Tuners but EFI Live works too. Sorry for not saying more, I'm waiting for a plane and on my phone.

Bell040 · 03-29-2010, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSteck

Bell:

1) Not really, but yes, you force the car into open loop.

2) Yes to the last question. If you're smart and good, you can get pretty close like that.

3) Handhelds won't give you access to the MAF or VE which is where the corrections need to be made. I am a fan of HP Tuners but EFI Live works too. Sorry for not saying more, I'm waiting for a plane and on my phone.

Thanks again!

So do you think I can figure HPTuners out on my own (using a wideband)? Or do really need to be an experienced tuner that has been doing this for years to get it right?

DSteck · 03-29-2010, 04:50 PM

It depends on how smart you are and how well you understand logic. That sounds really stupid, I know... But it is true. The PCM operates off of logic. Understanding why things happen is what enables you to make the correct changes. A good teacher can give you a sufficient crash course to get you started. Knowing what tables do what just comes from experience. For adjusting fueling though, a monkey could do that.

Taming drivability problems is what separates the men from the boys but really only comes into play with major hardware changes like a cam.

03-24-2010, 06:13 PM	#1
Bell040 Drives: 2SS/RS - Black - GFX Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: B'ham, Alabama Posts: 2,458 View My Garage	Wideband O2 Anyone running a wideband O2 sensor? ... the guys on the tuner forums think that it is crazy to try to do a tune without one. Is it in place of an original O2 or did you get a new connection port (bung) welded in? pics? Dual widebands? Which side do put it on? What brand did you go with? Was it worth the effort? __________________ Ordered: 10-13-08 Built: 3-30-09 (#1691) Recieved: 6-12-09 Blacked out, Cammed (Lunati Voodoo 233/245, .578/.598 @114°, +4°), ARH LTs, VR OTR CAI, Cutouts, and lots of other fun mods.

03-28-2010, 11:00 AM	#3
Bell040 Drives: 2SS/RS - Black - GFX Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: B'ham, Alabama Posts: 2,458 View My Garage	So how is Janettey, Vector, ect. tuning with the SCT, Diablo, ect. ?? ... I assume that most people that buy the hansheld tuners do not use a wideband. So the better question may be... who has a tune with a handheld tuner? ... did you use a wideband? __________________ Ordered: 10-13-08 Built: 3-30-09 (#1691) Recieved: 6-12-09 Blacked out, Cammed (Lunati Voodoo 233/245, .578/.598 @114°, +4°), ARH LTs, VR OTR CAI, Cutouts, and lots of other fun mods.

03-28-2010, 09:38 PM	#4
Bell040 Drives: 2SS/RS - Black - GFX Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: B'ham, Alabama Posts: 2,458 View My Garage	So what is the deal with the widebands? I have read a couple of posts like Meister's, and it seems like everyone just ignores it.... There are hundreds of posts about people getting generic "93 octane" tunes and custom email tunes......... and none about wideband O2 sensors. do I need a wideband or not? does it depend on which tuner I get? which mods I have? how much HP gain I want? __________________ Ordered: 10-13-08 Built: 3-30-09 (#1691) Recieved: 6-12-09 Blacked out, Cammed (Lunati Voodoo 233/245, .578/.598 @114°, +4°), ARH LTs, VR OTR CAI, Cutouts, and lots of other fun mods.

03-28-2010, 11:06 PM	#5
cheaplabor It the toybox 4 winter Drives: LSA 68f100 pickup/2010 rs/2ss abm Join Date: May 2009 Location: okotoks,alberta, canada Posts: 270	here's a link to how we tune from datalogging with a wideband o2 that is mobile and connects to our hp tuner through the air conditioning pressure curcuit.i know it sounds stupid but it works very well!a full throttle sweep from idle to max rpm in 4th gear on a vacant highway is all thats needed to produce a tune, its cool when a dyno isn't available this link will show you how to do it yourself http://www.trafficjams.ca/Performanc...ngProducts.htm Last edited by cheaplabor; 03-29-2010 at 10:18 AM.

03-29-2010, 12:37 AM	#7
Bell040 Drives: 2SS/RS - Black - GFX Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: B'ham, Alabama Posts: 2,458 View My Garage	Thanks DSteck!!! I have been trying to wrap my head around this for a while. Few lingering questions: 1) Wouldn't the ECM freak out if you removed a narrowband O2 sensor? ... I guess you couldn't be in closed loop control. 2) The "custom tune" with most of these handhelds requires you to drive around for a while doing different RPM shifts through the gears and cruising for a set time, then emailing them your log file... seems like they are doing more than just giving you a canned tune. What do you think they are doing with the log data? ... just looking at the fuel trims and guessing at the AFR? 3) would you suggest using a wideband with a handheld to a Newb (engineer Newb)? ... WB with HPtuners? .... would I be watching the AFR gauge at the different RPMs and changing a number somewhere (in a MAF table) to get it to a desired AFR at each RPM? __________________ Ordered: 10-13-08 Built: 3-30-09 (#1691) Recieved: 6-12-09 Blacked out, Cammed (Lunati Voodoo 233/245, .578/.598 @114°, +4°), ARH LTs, VR OTR CAI, Cutouts, and lots of other fun mods. Last edited by Bell040; 03-29-2010 at 01:17 AM.

03-25-2010, 10:18 AM	#2
Meister@Torq Drives: 2001 Crown Vic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Miami Posts: 974	You cant tune a car without a wide band, period. The best, most accurate wide band available is the NGX AFX We sell these and the innovate, which comes in a nicer package for display

03-28-2010, 11:24 PM	#6
DSteck Account Suspended Drives: 2006 Corvette Z06 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 587	All the canned tunes you see are a guess at getting your tune right, granted some of them are based on LOTS of data collected from vehicles with your exact configuration. These companies develop a calibration on a car using brand ABC intake and brand XYZ exhaust, and if you have those parts, they send you a tune. They might also have a tune for another brand intake, etc. HOPEFULLY those companies are using a wideband to develop these canned tunes. When you flash one of these, you're banking on your setup matching the setup that the tune was developed on. Personally, I'm a large fan of just using a wideband O2 sensor. You can add an extra bung, or replace one of the factory front narrowband O2 sensors. I'm not getting into the detail of how to log it, but a wideband is the way to ensure proper wide open throttle fueling. Narrowbands are great for part throttle calibration... but worthless for WOT. Anybody that tells you otherwise is a fool. A wideband allows a TRULY custom tune to be developed for you, and allows your tune to be exactly what it needs to be for your car.

03-29-2010, 10:32 AM	#9
DSteck Account Suspended Drives: 2006 Corvette Z06 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 587	Bell: 1) Not really, but yes, you force the car into open loop. 2) Yes to the last question. If you're smart and good, you can get pretty close like that. 3) Handhelds won't give you access to the MAF or VE which is where the corrections need to be made. I am a fan of HP Tuners but EFI Live works too. Sorry for not saying more, I'm waiting for a plane and on my phone.

03-29-2010, 04:50 PM	#11
DSteck Account Suspended Drives: 2006 Corvette Z06 Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 587	It depends on how smart you are and how well you understand logic. That sounds really stupid, I know... But it is true. The PCM operates off of logic. Understanding why things happen is what enables you to make the correct changes. A good teacher can give you a sufficient crash course to get you started. Knowing what tables do what just comes from experience. For adjusting fueling though, a monkey could do that. Taming drivability problems is what separates the men from the boys but really only comes into play with major hardware changes like a cam.