Shno's House of Z

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

I agree in today's "car world" time is of the essence.


Very true.



I believe the Nova was very close to the Camaro, wasn't it?
IMO the Camaro has always had 1 foot in the Muscle Car world and the other in the Sports Car world. The future looks to be more a Sports GT Car.

The Nova was never a "sport" or "sporty" car in it's basic form. Just an inexpensive coupe AND sedan. But the SS version with the big engine made it a "muscle" car.

Camaro is from it's inception a sporty coupe which Ford defined as the Pony Car. It always had sporting intentions, although not a true sports car.

That is what make the Camaro special, along with the Mustang, to give credit where it is due.

[JusticePete]

Muscle cars have only two doors. Four doors with big power are sport sedans. It isn't the correct use of the term, but I like lead sleds.

Back to the weight. Jim, no way we are getting a track edition of the Camaro that weighs less than a C7 Z06. We're back to a Gino's East bet.

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Unless they can seriously undercut the price of the GT350, I don't think it will be sufficient. The GT350/R have thrown down the gauntlet and its up to GM to respond or ignore it. Your build sounds similar to the GT350R but with a substantial power/weight disadvantage.

Agreed. I think the GT350/R is going to be a Z/28 slayer, IMO.

Anyone who knows me in person knows how highly I think of this car, but am reserving judgment until we see real performance figures. However, with as tight lipped as GM has been with the 6th gen, I have to believe they've got something up their sleeve and I find it hard to believe after introducing the 1LE, ZL1 & Z/28 that GM is going to let Ford own the handling category with the GT350.

However that did lead to this hilarious April Fools prank I posted on Facebook. The comments were hilarious.

[JusticePete]

;-)

[Bhobbs]

That's great haha.


I have no doubt Team Camaro has the ability to build a monster of a Camaro. The issue is whether or not they will be given an engine capable of besting the 5.2 Voodoo. I just don't see GM coughing up the money to develop a one off engine for the Z/28. The Z/28 was built with the LS7 because it was available after the Corvette moved on. With the lack of a proper Z/28 engine, I don't see a repeat of the gen 5 Z for the 6th gen. They may do what they did to the C7 Z but it won't be the same as the gen 5 Z.

Unless GM is willing to spend the money on a new engine, I don't see how they can take the GT350 head on. They will have to use the LT4 car to take on the GT350 and the GT500. The GT500 presents another problem. Ford is clearly willing to go big with horsepower numbers and they know full well what the LT4 is capable of. I wouldn't be surprised if the GT500 had a power advantage nearing triple digits.

The 1LE may or may not be needed if GM puts MRC on the base SS. I would love to see the 1LE return the way they built it on the 5th gen, if not more hard core. Yes I may be biased because I own one but I think it's one of the coolest cars built in a long time.

[Scarrzz]

.

Back to Number 3's question, I will say it because it needs to be said: I do believe that Camaro has been up until now at least, a Muscle Car.

[Edit: The exception being the fourth generation, of which I said when they came out, "Looks cool, but it's not a Camaro."]

For me it is more a question of semantics. I would say that the term "Muscle Car" itself has evolved as technology and engineering expertise have progressed. As times change, terms change.

People used to say that a Muscle Car was a car that looks tough without being huge and possesses more displacement, HP, and torque than anything else in it's price range. Also in the "Muscle Car Era" one could work on his own car without holding a Doctorate from MIT.

I would say that this is the New Muscle Car Era. The line between sports car and muscle car has blurred somewhat, but the underlying concepts of looks, size, and performance have only been evolving through time. To my way of thinking, if it looks tough and muscular and has lots of grunt it's still a muscle car. If it is smaller, looks sharp and fancy and has good performance it's a sports car.

For me, as long as you can put a couple of hefty high school or college football players and their girlfriends in the car and rip around the back roads like you own them, it qualifies as a muscle car.

Yeah, call me a nostalgic romantic.

[brt3]

Originally Posted by Scarrzz

To my way of thinking, if it looks tough and muscular and has lots of grunt it's still a muscle car. If it is smaller, looks sharp and fancy and has good performance it's a sports car.

My definition is simpler. Muscle Cars are happiest going in a straight line, while Sports Cars love turns. By that definition the ZL1 is a Muscle Car (I realize they do OK on road courses) and the Z/28 is a Sports Car.

IMHO, of course...

[Mr. Wyndham]

I admit - I am so not interested in anything about this new Mustang that I skipped over all the GT350 hoopla....

Just read up a bit. It sounds (to me) like the outgoing GT500 in that there's a lot of marketable features like the carbon fiber wheels that will make people go "ooh", but very little that is uniquely ground-breaking. It's riding on Pilot Sport Cup tires, which is nice...but even less practical than the G2 Goodyears featured on the 1LE and ZL1. The engine sounds interesting and unique, but it has less torque than an LS3. And the rest, Mag Ride, aero components, "if it didn't make it fast we got rid of it", etc...Sounds like Ford is compensating for the entire 5th-gen Camaro run in its marketing. None of that is new.

And what's with Ford and deleting the rear seat in that car all the time? I don't understand making the Mustang not a Mustang by removing the rear seat.

I reserve my full-on Mustang hate judgements until the 6th-gen Camaro is released. I have a funny feeling that whatever Camaro Team comes out of the gate with in May will make the GT350 track package look cute, and whatever "high end" model they've got planned for the future will make the GT350R cry. But...I'm biased. And that's why my garage will be painted Chevy Orange.

[Bhobbs]

The 5.2 Voodoo is the largest production FPC V8 built. No one ever said it won't match or beat the LS3 in torque but it will beat the LS7 in power. It's an impressive engine. GM doesn't have an N/A engine even close to that kind of performance.

Based on your statement, you must not have thought the Z/28 was very impressive either.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The 5.2 Voodoo is the largest production FPC V8 built. No one ever said it won't match or beat the LS3 in torque but it will beat the LS7 in power. It's an impressive engine. GM doesn't have an N/A engine even close to that kind of performance.

We don't yet know what this engine can do. It's the first time Ford has tried their hand at this, and while it might rev real high and make lots of power, the car they're putting it in is not light like a Ferrari. It could probably use the torque.

I also can't help but grin that now, nearly 10 years later...Ford has finally come up with an answer for GM's engineering in the LS7. Nevertheless, I'd rather have a modern small-block Chevy any day - because they're very smart power plants.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Based on your statement, you must not have thought the Z/28 was very impressive either.

I think the Z/28 was incredibly impressive. The aerodynamics exceeded the Corvette's engineering at the time, the DSSV dampers and obsessive attention to bushings and other suspension components suggest a truly dedicated approach to building a factory race car. They focused on the chassis first and foremost and put an available racing-spec engine into it to push it along. The LS7 is "old", and probably the least difficult thing about building the Z/28.

Ford is trying to do the same thing in building a race car. It's no longer a unique goal, because Camaro team did it first. But they seem to be doing what Ford always does - focus on the engine first, build the car second.

If the question is a factory-built race car, I like GM's approach to the answer better. I always have, which is why I'm here.

So, don't mistake what I'm saying - I don't think the GT350R is unimpressive...It just doesn't do it for me.

[Scarrzz]

I looked in the dictionary under "Z/28 impressiveness" and one of the synonyms listed was:

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

We don't yet know what this engine can do. It's the first time Ford has tried their hand at this, and while it might rev real high and make lots of power, the car they're putting it in is not light like a Ferrari. It could probably use the torque.

I also can't help but grin that now, nearly 10 years later...Ford has finally come up with an answer for GM's engineering in the LS7. Nevertheless, I'd rather have a modern small-block Chevy any day - because they're very smart power plants.


I think the Z/28 was incredibly impressive. The aerodynamics exceeded the Corvette's engineering at the time, the DSSV dampers and obsessive attention to bushings and other suspension components suggest a truly dedicated approach to building a factory race car. They focused on the chassis first and foremost and put an available racing-spec engine into it to push it along. The LS7 is "old", and probably the least difficult thing about building the Z/28.

Ford is trying to do the same thing in building a race car. It's no longer a unique goal, because Camaro team did it first. But they seem to be doing what Ford always does - focus on the engine first, build the car second.

If the question is a factory-built race car, I like GM's approach to the answer better. I always have, which is why I'm here.

So, don't mistake what I'm saying - I don't think the GT350R is unimpressive...It just doesn't do it for me.

It's not like the engine will make 3 lb ft of torque. They say it will make at least 400 lb ft, possibly closer to 450, which is nothing to sneeze at. The GT350R will be light, relatively. It won't be Ferrari light but it won't be Z/28 heavy either.

Ford hasn't answered the LS7 because they don't have a Z06 competitor. It's not like GM is cranking out LS7s for the Camaro's sake. The Camaro got the LS7 because of the Corvette. The Camaro won't get an engine without the Corvette getting it first. If GM says the Corvette only needs the LT1 and LT4 well that's all the Camaro will get.

The Z/28 is impressive but, as you said, it did nothing new. Brakes, aero, light weighting etc have all been done before.

If you ignore the BOSS 302LS, various Cobra Rs and Terminators, I guess you can say the Camaro team did it first.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

It's not like the engine will make 3 lb ft of torque. They say it will make at least 400 lb ft, possibly closer to 450, which is nothing to sneeze at. The GT350R will be light, relatively. It won't be Ferrari light but it won't be Z/28 heavy either.

Ford hasn't answered the LS7 because they don't have a Z06 competitor. It's not like GM is cranking out LS7s for the Camaro's sake. The Camaro got the LS7 because of the Corvette. The Camaro won't get an engine without the Corvette getting it first. If GM says the Corvette only needs the LT1 and LT4 well that's all the Camaro will get.

The Z/28 is impressive but, as you said, it did nothing new. Brakes, aero, light weighting etc have all been done before.

If you ignore the BOSS 302LS, various Cobra Rs and Terminators, I guess you can say the Camaro team did it first.

Boss LS was a joke. Z/28 did everything new in this segment. Never been done before to that level. This new car from Ford is their attempt to prove they can do it, too.

As I said - I just like the way GM engineers cars better than the way Ford engineers engines with wheels.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Boss LS was a joke. Z/28 did everything new in this segment. Never been done before to that level. This new car from Ford is their attempt to prove they can do it, too.

As I said - I just like the way GM engineers cars better than the way Ford engineers engines with wheels.

Whether or not you feel it was a joke is irrelevant. The BOSS 302 was built before GM built the Z/28.

What do you mean Ford is trying to prove they can build one too? They already did in the 2000 Cobra R.