'14 AGM 1SS/1LE Track build [COTW 11/17/14]

[X25]

Originally Posted by Mgizzle

Tx for th clear write up X on the engine mounts. I do have issues with third gear due to engine moving around too much, did see detroit.speed sells some nice mounts but they all look solid, no bushings at all. I drove a friends SS with Pfadt solid mounts and lots of NVH during start in first.

Even the BMR engine mounts increased the NVH significantly, at least until the mounts and engine got warm. These engines are not famous for their smooth idle or operation : )

On my Miata, I ended up using mounts that are identical to OEM in looks, but with 40% stiffer rubber, and I'm very happy with them. I wish we had a choice with stiffer rubber for Camaros, too.

More importantly, Miatas also have a so-called engine brace option. It's an arm with a rubber bolted on the passenger side of the engine, and connects the engine block to the strut tower. It would solve your shifting issue (it substantially limits engine movement) without introducing any NVH.

Perhaps you should check out what is used as OEM on Z/28 and ZL1? I'd especially be hopeful about ZL1 mounts if GM upgraded them over SS, since they would be designed to carry more engine weight.

[X25]

Just posted this at the Z/28 subsection. I will post updates once/if I get feedback and get my alignment done:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...20#post8811220

Originally Posted by X25

.
I do have a 1LE with full Z/28 aero, wheels, tires, and suspension. I have followed the track prep recommendations per GM for Z/28:

NOTE: This thread is only about discussing/figuring out the best starting point for track alignment settings. The best settings will depend on track venue, the tire model (if it's not Trofeo Rs), any suspension mods, etc.

I had about -2 front camber, and -1.5 (or more) rear camber with 0 toe all around, which is the aggressive end of the specs range provided by GM. I also tried tire pressures (cold) from 26 to 28 PSI. FYI, 28 PSI is the pressure recommended by GM during the track introduction events of the car to the journalists.

This is what I got after three track days on Trofeo Rs. The outer edges of especially the front tires got completely destroyed before even getting close to finishing up the rest of the tire.

• Easy solution: increase the tire pressures to give the tire more profile support.
  • This, however, undermines the performance of Trofeo Rs. Pirelli actually states that Trofeo Rs provide best performance at only 2 bar (29 PSI) hot. This is technically not possible for Camaros since due to our car's weight, GM specifically states that the pressure should never go below 26 PSI, which is where I eventually stopped at. Going the other way, increasing the cold temps to 30 PSI or so would undermine the tire's performance even further.
  • In other words, if you were to increase the tire pressures even further away from this tire's sweet spot, you might as well use another tire that works better with higher pressures.
• The proposed solution, which is already done by many members here, as it is obvious: alignment!
  • This car can clearly benefit higher camber up front.
  • The point of diminishing returns is up for debate.
  • One problem is finding an ideal rear camber. The rear adjustability is fairly limited from factory. I am currently using aftermarket eccentric bolts in place of OEM bolts to increase the limit without having to drop car's already low height. I don't think it can support much more than -2 even with those bolts, though.
  • Ultimately, in order to find ideal settings, one would need to gather data points from various settings, such as logging tire temps at different sections using a pyrometer using different pressure points, camber, caster (if adjustable), and even different venues.

My proposed alignment settings:
-------------------------------------------------------------

• FRONT:
  • Camber: -3 (needs camber plates).
  • Caster: 6.5+, but less than 7.5 (needs camber plates if it's not already there)
  • Toe: 0 all around.
• REAR:
  • Camber: -2 (requires aftermarket eccentric bolts)
  • Toe: 0 all around.

-------------------------------------------------------------


REMARKS:

• Camber:
  • The gap between front and rear is big, but this is somewhat intentional. Our front suspension is simple MacPherson type, and as such, it loses camber as the car leans further on the suspension. The rear, on the other hand, is a proper multilink setup, which should not lose camber, if not gain, as the car leans on it during cornering. In my opinion, the actual camber will probably be closer to -2/-2 during hard cornering.
  • FYI, Viper TA uses -2.5/-1.5, and ACR uses -2.8/-1.7 camber from factory.
• Caster:
  • Caster helps quite a bit with the composure of the car, and at least in Miata world, the more is the better. GM specs recommend about 6.5 degrees max, which is probably what the static caster is around anyway. To be safe, I'm intending to use at least 6.5 degrees, but will not wander away.
  • Curiously, Viper's front caster (from factory) drops from around 6.6 degrees for the regular models to 6 degrees at ACR. I am not sure if this is desired, or is just a compromise.
• Toe:
  • People like a little bit of toe in at the rear, and a little bit of toe out at the front for quick turn-in. In my opinion, aggressive front camber should help quite a bit with turn-in, and zeroing out toe (which is dead center in GM specs) should help with the brake stability. For a car with very good brakes like Z/28, I believe brake stability is of utmost importance anyway.
  • Aggressive toe also reduces top speed, reduces effective HP, and wears down tires faster than any other setting, so not having to go through that is also a plus.

What do you guys think? I am trying to finalize my targets for the alignment for the next season, and will hopefully get it done this week or next once I get to install my new Pegasus camber plates. Any feedback would be welcome. Looking forward to the next season : )

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by X25

In short: if you intend to use your car for (road course) track duty, I would stay away.

Longer version:
I don't think polyurethane is appropriate for most of the suspension, including the engine mounts. I learned the hard way that, especially when it's not encapsulated, polyurethane loses its shape. This is emphasized even more when the material is subjected to heat like the engine mounts.

When I first got these mounts, my thinking was that it would help me shift smoother. I knew that it helped quite a bit on my Miata since less flex between transmission casing and the engine (due to less movement allowed by stiffer engine mounts) helps preserve the transmission and let the shift forks do their job more precisely. Anyhow, I think the engine mounts were initially stiff enough, but after a few track days, I started hearing a banging noise as I got on/off throttle. It took me a week to realize what's going on: the bushings were malformed, and left a slack, which meant that they were beaten the crap out of as the engine hammered the bushings after every hard shift. Thanks to BMR, I got the bushings replaced for free, and tightened them a lot more this time, hoping this would not happen again. Well, they did not get hammered or completely destroyed like before, but they were still very much malformed.

The first set of bushings on the engine mount after 3 track days:


This is the condition of the second set of bushings after 5-6 track days:



I would highly recommend staying away from any engine mount with polyurethane bushings, especially if the bushings are put on like a washer, as on BMR mounts. If they are in a casing, they might have a better chance of survival, but after what I've been through, I'd only use rubber. The same advice goes for most of the other suspension bushings, too. I am very glad that I got to replace most of the remaining bushings with the Z/28 suspension package.

I have since reverted back to OEM 1LE (same as SS?) engine mounts. I thought they were same as ZL1 mounts, but apparently they're not. If I knew during the time, I'd just put on Z/28 (if it's different part number) or ZL1 mounts. I have to say, though, the OEM mounts seem to be doing a pretty decent job. I've never had issues shifting with this car when the car is in stress, except those times when my body was in stress itself, making the shift very hard to do : ) Hopefully my new harness bar and Profi II ASM race harness with Recaros will prevent that next season.

Anyone that has 22 Pages of Mods and doing a lot of Track time is doing something right! I would suggest that you go to the Solid Upgrade the MM006

http://www.bmrsuspension.com/index.c...productid=1292.

The Bushing that is used in the MM004 is the same Bushing that we have used for years in both 3rd Gen Camaro & Mustang K-Members with little to no issues. I think you could definitely benefit from the Solids.

[X25]

Originally Posted by BMR Sales

Anyone that has 22 Pages of Mods and doing a lot of Track time is doing something right! I would suggest that you go to the Solid Upgrade the MM006

http://www.bmrsuspension.com/index.c...productid=1292.

The Bushing that is used in the MM004 is the same Bushing that we have used for years in both 3rd Gen Camaro & Mustang K-Members with little to no issues. I think you could definitely benefit from the Solids.

Thanks for not being too hard on me!

For a dedicated track car, those solid bushings might indeed make a big difference.

[Denis]

very nice build. the car looks like its a monster.

[CreeperRS]

Nice build! Could you please provide more pics on your Diff cooler lines and if possible your Eaton True trac, thanks.

[X25]

Originally Posted by Denis

very nice build. the car looks like its a monster.

Thank you! GM did a good job on the looks dept. for sure : )

Originally Posted by CreeperRS

Nice build! Could you please provide more pics on your Diff cooler lines and if possible your Eaton True trac, thanks.

I don't have many pics of the Eaton diff since I got the internal swap done at a differential shop. I have a few pics of the lines, though.

The heat exchanger changes the shape of the lid a bit, and there is now less clearance at the passenger side of the exhaust with the diff, which forced me to remove the exhaust last week when I wanted to replace my subframe bushings.

The lines turn into rubber right before the diff. These are flexible enough to easily drop the diff more than a few inches without stressing the lines. In other words, I did not have to remove any lines in order to change the subframe bushings. Great, since it would otherwise be very annoying to refill and prime the transmission fluid again.


I tucked the lines behind the heat shield wherever possible to reduce the likeliness of heat transfer from the exhaust.



The line goes to the cooler directly from the diff, and the return line enters transmission (I think).

[CreeperRS]

Originally Posted by X25

Thank you! GM did a good job on the looks dept. for sure : )


I don't have many pics of the Eaton diff since I got the internal swap done at a differential shop. I have a few pics of the lines, though.

The heat exchanger changes the shape of the lid a bit, and there is now less clearance at the passenger side of the exhaust with the diff, which forced me to remove the exhaust last week when I wanted to replace my subframe bushings.


The lines turn into rubber right before the diff. These are flexible enough to easily drop the diff more than a few inches without stressing the lines. In other words, I did not have to remove any lines in order to change the subframe bushings. Great, since it would otherwise be very annoying to refill and prime the transmission fluid again.


I tucked the lines behind the heat shield wherever possible to reduce the likeliness of heat transfer from the exhaust.



The bottom line on the left is the one closest to the exhaust that I've mentioned previously. Not my favorite choice of location : )


The line goes to the cooler directly from the diff, and the return line enters transmission (I think).

Thanks bro, although I couldn't see your pics for some reason. I been thinking about adding the diff cooler.

[Dropspeed]

Here is my Eaton Tru-trac with stock diff in the background. Uploaded from. My phone. Sorry it is sideways :(

[CreeperRS]

Thanks bro. Wow, look at all the gunk on the OEM diff!

[Dropspeed]

That stock diff had a very hard life .

[X25]

Update:

Camaro mini-surgery is complete!

• Pegasus Delrin trailing arm bushings at the knuckle
• Pegasus solid subframe bushings
• Pegasus camber plates!
• Replacing front brake pads (replaced worn-out ST43s with new ST47s)

Started with Pegasus solid subframe bushings. Well, these are not bushings, but it's rather a conversion kit to solid mount. Fine by me; it fit very snug (which it should), and looks good, too! My only concern is if it is strong enough with all the holes additionally drilled on it for removing dead weight, but I presume Pegasus did its homework.


By-bye my flimsy remaining poly-urethane bushings! My car is now officially free of any poly bushing.


I used to be able to drop the diff quite a bit right in between the exhaust muffler pipes, but it is no longer possible. Z/28 diff cooler's ports are now interfering with the (OEM) pipes. BEWARE, if you lower the diff without noticing this clearance issue, you might break the cooler lines' ports on the diff. That could become an expensive fix in a hurry. As a result, I decided to cut my 1-piece exhaust yet again (last time, I cut it from right after high-flow cats by the headers). My exhaust is finally manageable by 1 person!


This harbor-freight 1000lbs scissor table is all I need to lower heavy stuff. I intend to use it on any such project (transmission, engine, diff) from now on.


Solid subframe bushings installed:



Pegasus delrin trailing arm bushings at the knuckle: It turns out the hole at the driver side knuckle is actually smaller than the passenger side! I thought I was doing something wrong before I learned about others also having the very same issue. It's not a problem with poly bushings, but delrin lets you know about the size difference. Not to break it, I used a clamp instead of a dead-blow hammer on the driver side for the last few millimeters of insertion:


I actually broke one of the sides of the bushing the first time I tried. Adam from Pegasus replaced it right away for free; thanks!!


I also drilled a small port on the knuckle, and installed a grease port (provided as an option by Pegasus). Considering binding issues, etc., it's great to have a grease port in there:


When I took the trailing arm off, I was surprised to see that the OEM Z/28 bushing at the car side was binding quite a bit, and resisting to turn the arm. I put quite a bit grease on that bushing as well, hoping it won't bind as much anymore.

Camber plates:
My progress was quickly halted by the lower strut bolt that does not get loose no matter what we tried. I even tried an extension over my oversized breaker bar, but no chance. I tried my 625 lb.ft 'earthquake' impact wrench, and it did not budge. I finally thought about increasing the air pressure of the impact wrench beyond its 90 PSI spec to 115 PSI, and only then I was able to remove the bolt:


I am estimating that it required at least 700 lb ft to loosen that bolt! I will have a talk with the alignment technician regarding this issue when I bring the car (on Tuesday or so). As you can see in the image, the bolt's threads are damaged. Thankfully, I had spare bolts (since I replaced the top bolts with camber bolts).

The big blunder: I wanted to put things on with the OEM washer and play to see how the lower camber plate holds up the spring. Wow, what a mistake; the top of the lower camber plate was crushed! Again, I let Adam at Pegasus know, and even admitted to it being completely my fault, and he got a replacement sent right away, no questions asked. THANK YOU!


Here is the crushed top of the lower part. The articulating part that fits on top if this actually fits around this little liner, so hopefully it will not be exposed to as much stress as I gave it (torqued to 40 lb.ft), but it is still a bit worrisome. I will definitely inspect this section next time I pull things apart (hopefully not soon).


Here it is with the part that gets installed on the top of it:


The passenger side comes with a spacer and the top plate with a deeper groove to compensate, to clear the hood strut's weld point. It worked just fine.


Installed; how it looks from the bottom:


MAX camber!


While inspecting the car, I also realized that the ST43s are finally finished. Two of those were still narrower than 1 new ST47 pad


It is finally finished and ready for track (except alignment)! I'm looking forward to trying it out with aggressive camber settings.

[X25]

Legend: Planned | Procured | Installed

• Engine / Powertrain
  • TSP 304 LT Headers with custom 3" X Pipe (TSP's own x-pipe did not fit perfect). 20, 76
  • Improved Racing oil pan baffle.
  • DEI coil boots.
  • 2000 degrees F matte-gray header coating. 20
  • Diablosport Intune w/ custom tune from FSP - $489 shipped.
  • DeWitts radiator - $575 shipped. 12, 30
  • Improved Racing oil cooler with Setrab Series 6 / 48 rows. how-to, 39, 314, 335, 343, 472
  • Improved Racing oil sensor manifold (ENV-150).
  • Tick remote clutch bleeder. 460, 477
  • Detroit Truetrac 912A686 Helical differential - $511 after rebate. 403
  • Z/28 rear differential cooler (23216684) - $530 + shipping (use coupon code to get 5% off total). 415, 477
• Interior
  • OEM Recaro seats. 214(manual), 227, 268(powered)
  • Custom harness bar with tank plates. 435, 499
  • Schroth Racing Profi II ASM. 435
  • Auto Meter 5286 Direct-fit Gauge Pod. 135
  • Auto Meter 6348 Oil Temp Gauge. 135
  • Auto Meter 6327 Oil Pressure Gauge. 135
  • Auto Meter 9114 Dimmer For LED Gauges.
  • SRP pedals.
• Handling
  • Z/28 suspension package . $3449 shipped. 58, 104
    
    • Front/Rear DSSV struts,
    • Front/Rear sway bars with end links ,
    • Front control arms,
    • Rear upper and lower arms.
  • Z/28 full aero. 181, 182, 285
  • ZL1Addons see-through wicker bill. 367
  • Pegasus CNC
    • Solid subframe bushings. 545
    • Delrin (solid) rear trailing arm bushings at the knuckle. 545
    • Camber plates. 545
  • Tires
    • Hankook Ventus R-S3 305/30/19 for daily driving. 89, 137
    • Pirelli Trofeo R 305/30/19. 179
    • Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 305/30/19. 193, 204
  • Wheels
    • APEX ARC-8 19"x10.5" +22 spin forged wheels for daily driving / rain. 56, 89, 130, 137
    • OEM Z/28 Wheels 19"x11" +11 fronts, 19"x11.5" +26 rears. 184, 204
• Brakes
  • Quantum - Competition Brake Cooling Kit - $239.95. how-to
    • NACA ducts: $20.
  • StopTech ST60 Front BBK 15” red (83.193.6800.71). 114, 121
  • Stock rear rotor (92245929) - $85.31 shipped x2.
  • Pads
    • Raybestos ST47 R2600.18 Front pads for StopTech ST60 caliper. 121
    • Cobalt Friction XR2 Rear (CRB-XR2-D592-15.0MM-R).
• Fluids
  • Engine oil: Mobil1 5W-30.
  • Differential oil: Redline 75W-90NS (no friction modifier for helical Eaton TrueTrac diff).
  • Transmission oil: Amsoil Signature Series Multi-Vehicle Synthetic ATF.
  • Brake fluid: Motul RBF 600.
  • Coolant: GM DexCool @30%.
  • Suspension grease: Amsoil Synthetic Polymeric Truck, Chassis and Equipment Grease, NLGI #2.
• Other
  • HSA elimination - $80 shipped.
  • Wheel comparison: 48, 117
  • Brake systems/comparison: 58, 79, 93, 117
  • Dyno: 155

[BaylorCamaro]

Hey X, I'm looking to revamp my suspension. I'm on 100% stock bushings, really the only suspension I've changed out is the Sways and end links. Couple of questions, how do you like the solid sub frame bushings? I was looking at ADM's billet solid sub frame bushings. My biggest concern is rid quality when I'm not on the track. Not my daily but still do go to car meets on the weekends. Also I'm not familiar with Pegasus suspension components, how are you liking them? Finally, have you only done your sub frame, and trailing arm bushings? My biggest issue right now is putting power down on corner exit..