Do you agree with the UAW?

[The_Stache]

Yes its a little steam.. but its also the truth. I live in phoenix, the whole Mexican worker issue is really more prominent here than almost anywhere (socal / west tex excluded).

Lord knows i don't want any of them building a car that i'm planning on owning!

People who don't think Mexicans do good work are VASTLY misinformed.. these people risk prison/life/health to enter this country JUST TO GET A JOB. When was the last time anyone here had to fight for a job?

The part I find ironic is these people WANT to work as opposed to union workers that are governed by an organization that is in the business of extortion (yes I said extortion) and when someone wants to work they WILL do a better job than someone thats just looking towards the next benefit of their time.

There's nothing wrong with paying your workers good for their time and efforts.

I agree, but there is a limit.. economics and consumers dictate buy low sell high invest the profits.. thats true business, if you don't follow that you wont be successful.

Big companies have a long history of stiffin' the little guy, making you work more for the same money, taking away benefits and pocketing the profits.

Thats a HUGE generalization.. yes to some degree its true for any company.. but really whats the goal of ANY company? To make money.

Instead of letting an organization use extortion to ensure you get the benefits and money you want.. why not go get a better education? make yourself a move valuable employee? Provide ways for the company to give a better product for cheaper? This is infinitely more valuable to a company than basically saying "if I don't get what I want I won't work".

Sorry its long winded but I am a HUGE advocate for getting rid of unions as a whole.. I personally think its the reason why Americans do SO little and EXPECT so much.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Yeah...as painful as that was to read...I'm glad it was a result of fustration. I have trouble thinking anybody would want to ship in Mexicans...

[The_Stache]

I have trouble thinking anybody would want to ship in Mexicans...

Why? If they immigrate legally.. they are then americans...

[Mr. Wyndham]

no I meant illegally. "just get 'em here to do the work"...

[The_Stache]

agree dragon... now back on topic..

My point was if a workforce thats here refuses to do the work, replace the workforce with another more willing and pay them the same as you pay the UAW and they will be jumping over each other for the chance..

[Mr. Wyndham]

I wouldn't say they refuse to do work. There are things going on that we don't know about, I'm sure. But I personally - as I have said before - am neither for nor against Unions: I don't think the demands either side is making are un-reasonable.

[The_Stache]

sigh.. semantics dragon...

The individual may want to work..

BUT as a supporting member of the union you support the unions goals and actions, and a strike is a refusal to work until demands are met (or negotiated)

Just like being an American.. you support the war with Iraq even if individually some don't.. we are a member of the USA and therefore support its goals and actions.

[Mr. Wyndham]

don't open up that can...I don't want to discuss the war right now.

What differs between the two, though...is the one negative of Unions I'll admit to: If the Union calls a strike, You Must walk out, regardless of whether or not you want to work - which, I'd be willing to bet is a fair number of people. That's not the case in whether or not a country supports something.

[TAG UR IT]

I appreciate the comments from those having to go through this. I do understand the importance of unions...as I am in one myself in the PD. I know where you are coming from when you say take away 20% and your standard of living goes down. If anything....don't take away what I ALREADY HAVE...THAT IS WRONG. I worked for it.

As far as "Mexicans" go...that can get waaay off topic and be taken too far. It's not about the quality of work they can do...better or worse... It's about the willingness to work for lower wages...which they will. The quality of work would be the same (after all training had been done). Of couse, some of that money goes back to Mexico. I want to keep our money here...for american families and american jobs, etc. But, statistically, there are a lot of Hispanics who will work for less money and do the same job. It won't go that way, though.

[The_Stache]

It's about the willingness to work for lower wages

Sigh, I guess my point is not getting across..

What does an autoworker for toyota, honda, dodge, ford, ect make? If your in that industry take the average and thats what you get.. if you want more.. look for another industry/job.. Like you said tag.. your a PD, you don't expect to make outside of the normal range for PD's do you?

My point was there is a workforce there that will be more than willing to work for the "industry standard".. whats wrong with giving them jobs (legally)

Anyway, YES I do feel sorry for the individual that has to go through this.. but you have to expect it due to the current state of the industry..



Oh and dragon yea i dont want to discuss that either.. BUT you always have a choice.. you can leave the union, you can get another job, ect.. same with the country.. you can leave.. nobody is making you stay here..

[TAG UR IT]

What do you mean, your point isn't getting across? There ARE people who will be willing to work for less. By that, I mean people who CURRENTLY are not working with the union. Those people would be willing to take their jobs to help their families. That is truth.

I don't want to get flamed for this...but working on a line pays only so much....period. That's how it goes w/ any job. There is pretty much a cap unless you swith a line of work. I'm sure there are MANY people who would be happy making what the workers are making now. I know...quality of the workers...I know. But, people can be trained and moved into those spots who will accept the money they make and be happy with it.

I didn't go into the profession I'm in now to make $150,000 a year. That's just not feasible. If I wanted to make money like that, I would have chosen a different profession...plain and simple....and, I would have gotten a different degree in college. If the jobs taken are being paid at a particular rate and then GM wants to cut that pay rate, I'd say tough....that's what the person who took the job accepted and that's what they should stay at.

And reading my previous post...I basically said the same thing as you, no?

[The_Stache]

My apologies, after rereading I am the one that was mistaken. I thought you where implying that we have the Mexicans work for min wage, and that was not what I was trying to say or address in the previous post.

heres a bonk on me...

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by diarmadhi

Sigh, I guess my point is not getting across..

What does an autoworker for toyota, honda, dodge, ford, ect make? If your in that industry take the average and thats what you get.. if you want more.. look for another industry/job.. Like you said tag.. your a PD, you don't expect to make outside of the normal range for PD's do you?

My point was there is a workforce there that will be more than willing to work for the "industry standard".. whats wrong with giving them jobs (legally)

I get what your trying to say, I really do!

But You must take into account the standard of living issue. Toyota can't be calculated into the equation, nor can Honda or any other automaker who has their majority factory-base in a "lower than the US" country.

They can afford to be paid less. Their standard of living requires less 'funding' so-to-speak.

Taking the path that you have outlined, and industry standard...won't work. It's exactly like adding a 0 to a cumulative grade average.(sorry, I'm a teacher) no matter what other grades you have, if you give that zero the same wieght as the other grades, then that zero is gonna suck your average down. And in the case of the UAW, if those 'higher-grades' are depending on a certain amount of income, which - regardless of how much - they are. Then the average won't be able to sustain them. If you took a US-based standard only, then it would work.

Which brings us back to the hiring a more willing workforce. Then you get outsourcing. Chinese are willing to be paid much less, because that;'s a decent living for them, which is why half our crap is made over there.That's why companies outsource - they don't have to pay as much for the end-product. (I just said that to say it, I know you know what outsourcing is)

The bottom-line is, Unions are losing their foothold on manufacturing industries, due to the 'more willing workforce' you describe. In this case, the UAW realises this...and their trying to put a stop to it. They must adapt, not resist - in order to survive.

[z28camaro2471]

With respect to the pay cut, if someone loses their job and can not find another job making the same amount of money, guess what, you were paid more than you are worth.

You want job security; work harder than your peers, learn more than your peers, accept that you control your own destiny (it's no one else's fault you are where you are in life, if you want to blame someone, look in the mirror).

I doubt you'll find many people more pro-USA than I am. I'm all for keeping jobs in the USA. I HATE outsourcing. The problem is that the unions have created expenses not commensurate with the work performed. If GM wants to stay profitable, they need produce some of their vehicles at a lower cost. If they made all of their vehicles here, they'd be out of business. The UAW would be obsolete also.

I'm all for paying people a fair living wage, but when janitors make $25/hr that's not realistic for the skill set involved. Assembly line work, basically the same thing. While I can't speak to the skills these people have, their job requires little or no skill.

I also know that there are those within the UAW that are skilled; engineers, machinists, electricians, etc. I have NO problem with this subset of workers making excellent money.

I honestly hope this results in a favorable outcome for both parties with no loss of US jobs. I just can not stand the union's attitude of self entitlement.