Z/28 might not be much faster than SS

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Doc

All those cars became known as muscle cars once the big blocks were in them but when they first started out they were just mid-sized sedans mostly. That whole scene changed very rapidly in just a few years once basically the Mustang and then the Camaro started selling like hotcakes.

In the early 60's comfort and luxury were the buzzwords with the Corvette being a sports car but also a muscle car. The sedans were big, very heavy and mostly cruisers. It really wasn't until the Mustang came out in 64 along with "hot rod" songs that started cranking up the interest in street racing and performance machines. Guys always did mods of course, they were the true "hot rodders" back then. Chevy's from the mid to late 50's were wildly popular with that crowd. In fact the Chevy's from those years never fell out of fashion, ever. They were always popular from the day they came out and still are.

Up until 64-65 the high performance cars were Vettes, Jags, Cobras, etc. I remember standing at the fence as a kid watching them race at the L.A. Fairgrounds in Pomona, California. Back then it wasn't just a drag strip for the Winternationals; they had a full road course too. But once the Mustang hit the scene, by the end of the 60's it had all changed with all those cars you guys mentioned being contenders, along with the Judge, GTO, AMX and others. Great times for cars.

AH!!! See - the only experience I have is through books of those days. I wished I could've been there Thanks for the edumacation

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Doc

All those cars became known as muscle cars once the big blocks were in them but when they first started out they were just mid-sized sedans mostly.

Yes, it was the big blocks that made them legends. The muscle car era wasn't 1961-1966 ... it was 1967-1971. Big on engines, big on styling. And of course all the big name muscle cars started out as basic mid-sized sedans.Thats part of what makes them muscle cars. The rest is affordability, great straight line performance, and poor handling (as I like to say, they handled well enough to turn around and make another pass at the drag strip).

Originally Posted by Doc

That whole scene changed very rapidly in just a few years once basically the Mustang and then the Camaro started selling like hotcakes.

Something to consider: did the scene change because of the Camaro and Mustang's success, or was their success a result of the change?

[MG]

The Z28 should be to the SS what the SS is to the V6,......if it is worth its name.

BTW, Insideline got the Callaway Camaro - which makes slightly less horsepower and torque than the LSA and still uses the stock 275 Pirelli PZeros and gearing - to 60 in 4.0 secs and through the 1/4 mile in 12.4 @ 113.9.
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...and-video.html

So im thinking a genuine OEM supercharged Camaro with more "comprehensive" upgrades should exeed that number, at least.

3.8 to 60 and 12 flat through the quarter is quite possible, and would simply destroy the GT500. The only issue here would be having a Camaro that steps on the toes of the Corvette, upseting the "pecking order" GM is so keen on protecting.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by MG

The Z28 should be to the SS what the SS is to the V6,......if it is worth its name.

BTW, Insideline got the Callaway Camaro - which makes slightly less horsepower and torque than the LSA and still uses the stock 275 Pirelli PZeros and gearing - to 60 in 4.0 secs and through the 1/4 mile in 12.4 @ 113.9.
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...and-video.html

So im thinking a genuine OEM supercharged Camaro with more "comprehensive" upgrades should exeed that number, at least.

3.8 to 60 and 12 flat through the quarter is quite possible, and would simply destroy the GT500. The only issue here would be having a Camaro that steps on the toes of the Corvette, upseting the "pecking order" GM is so keen on protecting.

I don't think you've been around here long. . .lol. it's been said b people from GM they aren't afraid of the "pecking" order everyone thinks there is.

[MG]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I don't think you've been around here long. . .lol. it's been said b people from GM they aren't afraid of the "pecking" order everyone thinks there is.

So, I take it then that there would be no problem in having a Camaro that is faster than a base Corvette (at least in a straight line) while still undercutting or matching (lets hope not) the Vette's price tag?

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by MG

So, I take it then that there would be no problem in having a Camaro that is faster than a base Corvette (at least in a straight line) while still undercutting or matching (lets hope not) the Vette's price tag?

and the vette appeals to a different crowd. I for one want a 2+2. where as I know others just want a vette. . .

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by MG

So, I take it then that there would be no problem in having a Camaro that is faster than a base Corvette (at least in a straight line) while still undercutting or matching (lets hope not) the Vette's price tag?

Nope! Where ever a Z28 is faster than a base Vette...there will always be a Z06 and ZR1 out there to smack it back down a peg.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

and the vette appeals to a different crowd. I for one want a 2+2. where as I know others just want a vette. . .

+1.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Yes, it was the big blocks that made them legends. The muscle car era wasn't 1961-1966 ... it was 1967-1971. Big on engines, big on styling. And of course all the big name muscle cars started out as basic mid-sized sedans.Thats part of what makes them muscle cars. The rest is affordability, great straight line performance, and poor handling (as I like to say, they handled well enough to turn around and make another pass at the drag strip).


Something to consider: did the scene change because of the Camaro and Mustang's success, or was their success a result of the change?

Oh it was definitely the Mustang that started it. At the end of 1963 the whole country was in shock and depressed over the assassination of President Kennedy. About 90 days later 4 kids from Liverpool came to New York in 1964 and provided a very welcome and much needed distraction. Later that year Ford rolled out the Mustang and caught Chevrolet by surprise. Chevy had the Corvair which was supposed to be a poor man's Vette but bad press from it being able to roll over under certain conditions pretty much killed it. I always thought it got a raw deal from the hatchet job the press did on it; it was actually a much better car than it got credit for.

It would take Chevy until 1967 before they could mount a credible challenge to the Mustang, but boy did they. When the Camaro debuted I was awestruck by its beauty. This was definitely NOT your parent's sedan. To me at that time it looked like a fighter jet on wheels. I thought the hideaway headlights were so advanced and futuristic. And actually when I look back, it was the debut of the Camaro as a challenger to the Mustang that kicked off the muscle car wars.

They had the big block engines years earlier but they were for moving those big and VERY heavy sedans. Those massive stamped steel and chromed bumpers weighed a ton. Huge steel ladder frames, big cast iron block engines with lots of power and torque to get those battle tanks moving. Those engines were a hot rodder's dream when the lighter pony cars hit the scene.

Once the Camaro hit the scene and the general (GM) was officially in the game, all the other manufacturers joined in. In those 3 years, 67-70, everybody and their dog was trying to capture the muscle car crown.

It was a great time for car enthusiasts which we needed to distract us from the ugliness of the Viet Nam war, the assassination of President Kennedy's brother Robert Kennedy, and the hideous darkness of the Hollywood-led submersion into the drug culture. 1970 marked the end of "old world" America and the beginning of the Marxist, socialist, Hollywood-left's all out war against America and it's individual freedoms. The stain of what they've done to our society, culture, our country and people, and continue to do to this day darkens our very soul and puts government of the people, by the people and for the people in imminent danger of disappearing forever. It had never existed before in the thousands of years of human history, and if allowed to be weakened into collapse by it's enemies, it will never be again.

I love this country and pray the same providence that blessed our founders will bless us today and wake us up that we may not lose such a great inheritance fought and paid for so dearly by those who went before us.

May the spirit of America rise up on eagle's wings and revive our strength and consciousness before our enemies within have done too much damage to reverse and nurse our nation back to health.

[ArkySS]

Damn Doc I knew I liked you

IBM car
Blue Angel Fan
Great American
:flag2:

Mucho props to you my friend

[v6sonoma]

Pulling this back on to the OP did anyone else see the report of the next vette engine? It's supposed to be a 5.5L V8 rated at 440hp. We know it will eventually make it's way into the Camaro. So there's your lower displacement engine. As for the Z28 we're all assuming that it will be the LSA but what we haven't really debated is it's output. Do you think GM might detune it a bit to say 500hp or so for better mileage or perhaps tune it for more low end torque?

[SS-screamer]

I picture the Z competing with the GT500. To do that I think it will need a little more HP than the GT given the weight difference. Increased low end torque would be icing on the cake. Maybe we will see VVT with Z.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by v6sonoma

Pulling this back on to the OP did anyone else see the report of the next vette engine? It's supposed to be a 5.5L V8 rated at 440hp. We know it will eventually make it's way into the Camaro. So there's your lower displacement engine. As for the Z28 we're all assuming that it will be the LSA but what we haven't really debated is it's output. Do you think GM might detune it a bit to say 500hp or so for better mileage or perhaps tune it for more low end torque?

where's this report. the last 5.5L v8 I heard about was in the C6R and was a DI engine. . .pushing something like 480 hp. . . and the reason I've been pushing for people to not limit their sights on the LSA. lol

Also the Z28 will more then likely get a HP bump, not a detune. GT500 is it's mark and with the GT500 weight less and at what 550. . .the Z28 will need more power and better gearing to beat the GT500. BUT with the Z28 being IRS it will go faster around a road course. . .if weights are close. yep.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by SS-screamer

I picture the Z competing with the GT500. To do that I think it will need a little more HP than the GT given the weight difference. Increased low end torque would be icing on the cake. Maybe we will see VVT with Z.

no VVT on the LSA. maybe if we get a DI engine. but with the gen V engine not being ready for production (seeing how the Z28 is in early testing) we won't see it.

[RSHugger]

Originally Posted by MG

The only issue here would be having a Camaro that steps on the toes of the Corvette, upseting the "pecking order" GM is so keen on protecting.

Not sure how easy it would be to find but a couple of years ago FBodfather was talking about how the 2002 Z28 actually had a faster lap time than the Corvette... not that it was well advertised but that gives you a little idea that they are not too concerned with stepping on some Corvette toes. And as mentioned... there will always be a Z06 or ZR1 to provide a little reality check/humble pie. No matter what they come out with it will be interesting and awe inspiring...