Perceptions Die... OK Say Again Y Foreign is Better

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

Ford is on a ROLL.

These are the words of a certain fellow Forum goer who seems to be a Fan of the company that Stephen Wozniak help found.

I ask Where???? Seriously. Where???

Ford's one claim to fame seems to be the Fusion. But from what I've seen is that the Fusion enjoyed a decent sales uptick after it was introduced for about 2 months. It is now selling in numbers that are almost even with the 2 year old Malibu which has the Impala still selling right next to it on the lots.

The victory with Fusion is found in that cars consistently strong showing and continuing refinement/improvement which serves to improve the perception of the brand as a whole. The swell of sales following the mid cycle refresh was nice without question, but that is not why the car is a success. Another point worth mentioning, profitability on this car has long been rumored to be extremely good, particularly for the class which is known to be a bit cut throat. The problem with profitability comparisons is that all we will ever have to go on is circumstantial evidence, but what evidence we do have absolutely indicates that Fusion is one of Fords better money makers, trucks aside, even when viewed on a per unit basis.

As for the Impala argument, I have long been of the opinion that discount/fleet queens take it on the chin a bit too hard. That said, I find it hard to believe that Impala is stealing sales from Malibu in any meaningful amount since actual, on the road transaction prices are vastly different.

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

The Taurus is a nice new car, but that has not translated into sales success unless U are directly comparing it to the previous Taurus's sales.. which were rightfully low due to a very mediocre vehicle. I have to in fact liken the Taurus at it's current pace in sales as being very similar to the GENESIS.. in that so much hype is surrounding it by non-buyers that a "halo" of success is automatically surrounding it even though it barely leaves the lots. That is not to say that the Taurus will not in sales, but one can hardly say that they have been "on a roll" when only one product (Fusion) has surfaced showing any real numbers.. and even they have slacked off.

Given where Ford is within this segment, the price/positioning strategy of the Taurus, the current sales breakdown of the Taurus, and the state of the full size car market at the moment I think the current Taurus has to be viewed as a success. First, let me say that nobody is more surprised by this than me, while I think the new Taurus excels in many respects I personally thought the smallish for the overall size interior and exponentially expensive as the options mount sticker price would conspire against the car to render it an utter market failure. Literally, on a couple of occasions I referred to the car as Ford's Phaeton...a sort of bridge too far in the auto market taking a Ford full sizer into a price segment it couldn't possibly support without V8 cachet and a more polarizing set of clothes.

Apparently I was wrong. Taurus is on track to move around 60k units a year at current sales levels moving at full sticker and little in the way of rebates. Stellar? No, but those numbers are very solid for a full sizer with minimal rebates in this market to be sure, particularly one this expensive. In fact, Taurus best sales month thus far beats the best sales month G8 ever had by almost double, and Taurus has done that without anything like the large rebates G8 eventually adopted. More importantly, the car is selling well to the 'coasters' the domestics long ago forfeited to the import brands and have been clamoring to reclaim. Taurus is selling very well in California for example where that high feature content is a major selling point. Even more, Ford seriously underestimated the demand for high end, better equipped models which means even more profit for the brand.

Far from being unimpressive, giving who the car is selling to and in what trim levels coupled with solid demand, Taurus may actually be the most important car Ford has introduced since the original. There is simple no way you can easily put a value on what breaking into the Pacific coast set is worth for a domestic automaker.

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

The MKS, revised MKz, elephant MKT, and MKX are nothing impressive unless U lean them up against an Acura or something not on my radar

Depends on what you mean by impressive. MKS and MKT represent value on a level that nobody else really offers at the moment. MKS is very much like a more stylish, more diversified take on a last gen Lexus LS at a major discount. Materials and build quality are excellent, feature content is extremely high even when compared to cars that cost twice as much, and the EB V6 is a genuinely swift alternative for those who demand good power. MKT is in a world all it's own in this price range, offering ridiculous interior space, excellent comfort, great build quality/materials, and that sames powerful EB V6 for those who want it.

MKS and MKT are yet another foray into rebuilding Lincoln, but they are solid cars that represent good value and the beginning of a sustainable plan to get Lincoln back to the top tier of luxury. IMO the difference here between what Lincoln and Cadillac are doing is that Lincolns approach is measures and thought out, whereas Cadillac started great guns putting themselves in a position where they couldn't afford to fail, even once.

CTS has turned into agreat product, but Cadillac doesn't have the means to spread that approach across the Caddy lineup and, it appears to me, they didn't have the money to do it when the plan to do exactly that was first hatched so now we have a sort of automotive do-over in progress where Cadillac is backing away from rwd everywhere else and trying to take a sort of half-Lincoln, half CTS approach to the revival of the brand which, if not carefully thought out, is likely to leave the brand and the customer confused regarding what Cadillac currently is and who it is for. Lincoln doesn't face that problem.

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

If we are talking future vehicles please don't... Bring up the Fiesta and I will absolutely fall over. It isn't a hit until it at least goes on sale. It would seem that by the time it gets here the new Aveo and Cruze will be ready to go as well. Buick will be getting ready to release the Regal, "Astra," Volt will be less than 8 months away along with the Orlando, and Cadillac will be readying the ATS, and XTS to hit the market in the latter part of 2010 or early 2011.

Of course they aren't a hit until they go on sale, but near future product that is all but ready to go is perhaps more important than what is actually here right now so there is no way we can talk about success and leave this part out. Example? Take Cadillac again. Many folks argued that the future of Cadillac looked bleak some time ago and the the then somewhat impressive new STS, CTS, XLR, and SRX were promising but not indicative of what Cadillac could sustain. In the end they were right, and they knew what many folks should have but didn't because they were looking at what Cadillac could manage in the near future and not just what was on the lot right now.

The truth is I think Ford is getting a lot of credit for what they have in the pipeline and, in some measure, rightfully so. Focus and Fiesta are just around the corner and both promise to easily be class leading products upon their debut here in the U.S. market....there is no way we can reasonably ignore that.

When you bring products like Aveo and Cruze into the equation part of the problem is that, arguably, it just makes GM look worse unless and until these products prove that they can break the mold. Both are based on global platforms but both are also effectively designed by Daewoo, a budget brand occupied with building budget cars even since GM purchased them. Can they do better? Kia and Hyundai prove that it is possible, but given the Chevy badged product they peddle in Europe I think the market is rightfully in an 'I'll believe it when I see something that indicated a major shift in principle' state of mind. Example? In Europe the Cruze isn't even pitched as a competitor to the existing C1 Focus but is instead focusing on the 'value' portion of the market competing with Hyundai, Kia, and Skoda.

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Mercury is completely pointless.

At the moment, yeah, but here again we see why Ford really is on a roll. Ford has a plan for Mercury that addressed both near and long term, it is measured and make sense, and that plan will be enacted when appropriate. While blatantly level-headed this kind of well thought out approach to the business was and still is hardly the status quo for the domestic brands as a whole.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

Ford is on a ROLL.

These are the words of a certain fellow Forum goer who seems to be a Fan of the company that Stephen Wozniak help found.

I ask Where???? Seriously. Where???

Ford's one claim to fame seems to be the Fusion. But from what I've seen is that the Fusion enjoyed a decent sales uptick after it was introduced for about 2 months. It is now selling in numbers that are almost even with the 2 year old Malibu which has the Impala still selling right next to it on the lots. The Taurus is a nice new car, but that has not translated into sales success unless U are directly comparing it to the previous Taurus's sales.. which were rightfully low due to a very mediocre vehicle. I have to in fact liken the Taurus at it's current pace in sales as being very similar to the GENESIS.. in that so much hype is surrounding it by non-buyers that a "halo" of success is automatically surrounding it even though it barely leaves the lots. That is not to say that the Taurus will not in in sales, but one can hardly say that they have been "on a roll" when only one product (Fusion) has surfaced showing any real numbers.. and even they have slacked off. The MKS, revised MKz, elephant MKT, and MKX are nothing impressive unless U lean them up against an Acura or something not on my radar

If we are talking future vehicles please don't... Bring up the Fiesta and I will absolutely fall over. It isn't a hit until it at least goes on sale. It would seem that by the time it gets here the new Aveo and Cruze will be ready to go as well. Buick will be getting ready to release the Regal, "Astra," Volt will be less than 8 months away along with the Orlando, and Cadillac will be readying the ATS, and XTS to hit the market in the latter part of 2010 or early 2011.

Truth is Ford, over the last year, has been a big fat HYPE machine. They gained good PR by not taking Gov't Funds, but the BK of GM and Chrysler might have done more harm to them than good. While Chrysler is a mess GM seems to be seriously benefiting from this entire mess by way of serious pent up demand for its new and improved products, more profit via less languishing product and no-need for UAW Strike inspired over-production, a reawakening of marketing genius, creative sales tactics, and squashing of age old perceptions.

The problem with Americans often comes from the basic truth that we very quickly forget. We often jump from one band wagon to another. I mean within a year:

1) Michael Jackson went from Child Molester to being essentially Canonized.

2) Something Political... So I edited it not wanting to bring it here.

3) Toyota went from being the company that cares to the company that covers up, while Hyundai went from shitty ass cars to shitty ass cars that look better because they copied better looking cars,

Well U get the picture

The myriad of "I'll never buy from Government Motors, Ford is my brand if I'm buying American" advocates seemed to abandon that idea about a month ago. A fellow leaser in my office complex shouted that very same silly ass drivel when GM came out of BK... About a week ago I see that SOB pulling up in a Dark Blue Camaro SS.

"The new Mustang just didn't do it for me... Listen to those 426 Horsies rumble" HIS WORDS

Ah this is just a bunch of rhetoric. There is plenty of proof Ford is on a roll. I have some work to do but I will be back with links and facts. All your comments are just opinions. Where is your proof??? It's easy to spew out that crap but show some facts and links to go along with it.

There is not 1 fact in your whole post, why don't you show some proof.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Cmicasa, we have a name for the compact Buick now...

Verano.

What's up Fenny. U are here 2? Cool.

I heard about that name... I like it, but then I don't I could see it being confused with the Suzuki Verona. Personally I think they should stick with Astra, but that might confuse Saturn lovers... or bring them in.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by comiskeybum

ford is on a roll because it didnt go bankrupt like a certain company did. this is reason enough to say on a roll.

U are missing one HUGE part tho...

Ford's situation was worse than GM's back in 2007... When Mullaly came in he sold off PAG (Jag, Land Rover, Aston) and took out immense loans while credit was flowing. GM said at the time that they would be fine, not knowing that the market and credit would go BUSTO a year later. Ford happened to have already taken the loans that they would ultimately need in Sept 2008, thus they did not have to get anything when he Congressional request came from the GM and Chrysler.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by lil_chef

Are you the same Cmicasa the Great that is frequently referenced at the motortrend forums?

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by All-Or-Nothing

Ah this is just a bunch of rhetoric. There is plenty of proof Ford is on a roll. I have some work to do but I will be back with links and facts. All your comments are just opinions. Where is your proof??? It's easy to spew out that crap but show some facts and links to go along with it.

There is not 1 fact in your whole post, why don't you show some proof.

Read the title buddy boy.. I asked U FOR PROOF

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by lil_chef

A well thought out and typed rant.

i dont mind having a FWD cadillac. the only problem that arrises is the possibility of the FWD XTS being only a marginal improvement over the Buick. which would cause serious overlap

i also do not want Cadillac to loose sight of building Sporty/fun to drive luxury cars.

I think we can be rest confident that Cadillac is set on their mission.

For some reason people seemed to have miss the part where GM literally said that the car was gonna be longer and WIDER than the Lacrosse. The Lacrosse is already 196.9 and a 73.1 Width. BOTH make the Buick a longer and wider car than the Cadillac STS. If the XTS adds just 3 inches on to length and 1.5 inches to the width it will bigger than the Audi A8. If it adds just 7 inches onto the length.. it will exceed the length of the A8 L. Cadillac is certainly no stranger to BIG CARS.

Also I think with all of the chaos people hav missed the fact that the STS has become a seriously competitive car in terms of luxuries and new technologies. The Platinum offers some of the nicest niceties I can think of in a ride. The trickle down effect will certainly see those things go to the XTS, but with more upscale options as well. The CTS will benefit from the STS's demise as well. 2011 will more than likely see the CTS getting a mild MCE with upgrades to hold it over until the replacement comes in round '13.

I believe in the the idea of XWD standard and FWD for Fleet/Livery.. but I will not say that I prefer the (China) SLS over the XTS, because I haven't seen the XTS yet. My guess is that the XTS will still blow the SLS/STS away. To many people are on the RWD bandwagon... all the while XWD is proving that it can do the job.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

U are missing one HUGE part tho...

Ford's situation was worse than GM's back in 2007... When Mullaly came in he sold off PAG (Jag, Land Rover, Aston) and took out immense loans while credit was flowing. GM said at the time that they would be fine, not knowing that the market and credit would go BUSTO a year later. Ford happened to have already taken the loans that they would ultimately need in Sept 2008, thus they did not have to get anything when he Congressional request came from the GM and Chrysler.

PAG is still around. It controls daily business for Volvo. Fords loans was a very well thought out plan that has benefitted them. It is well known that they took the loans because of what they percieved as a declining market and wanted to be prepared for the worst possible scenario.


I see you still have no facts to back your talk with.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

Read the title buddy boy.. I asked U FOR PROOF

Of course you would. Why on earth would you want to have to provide facts yourself.


This won't end well so to avoid getting banned, have fun.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Huh? The reason they wanted to sell them, is because the financial losses incurred by "killing" them, is monumental!! They learned their lesson the hard way with Oldsmobile....

I guess I don't understand why you posted that.

The thing is.. and what I am saying is that these brands should have never been created in the first place. Saturn was an unnecessary brand whose funding would have better served Olsmobile or even Chevy in GM's mission to combat the then growing threat from Asia.

Hummer should have simply been a trim level of GMC. In fact.. GMC should have been Hummer. Meaning that in 2002 GM should have taken GMC and split in into "Professional" for a biable competitor alternate to Land Rover and a "Rugged" but still premium competitor to Jeep.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by All-Or-Nothing

PAG is still around. It controls daily business for Volvo. Fords loans was a very well thought out plan that has benefitted them. It is well known that they took the loans because of what they percieved as a declining market and wanted to be prepared for the worst possible scenario.


I see you still have no facts to back your talk with.

LOL... I am full of facts. Ford's loans were as necessary as a Penicillin is to a Thai Hooker. Ford was on the verge of death.. in fact.. there was even talk of GM buying Ford. Hell in 2003-2004 Ford's balance sheet showed they had $161 Billion in Debt.

They took the Loans because they needed the effin CASH.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

The thing is.. and what I am saying is that these brands should have never been created in the first place. Saturn was an unnecessary brand whose funding would have better served Olsmobile or even Chevy in GM's mission to combat the then growing threat from Asia.

Hummer should have simply been a trim level of GMC. In fact.. GMC should have been Hummer. Meaning that in 2002 GM should have taken GMC and split in into "Professional" for a biable competitor alternate to Land Rover and a "Rugged" but still premium competitor to Jeep.

Gotcha. And I would tend to agree...it seems they've learned from their mistakes, though...insofar as their choices of brands for axing. The current team seems poised to take the market by storm.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

Ford was on the verge of death.. in fact.. there was even talk of GM buying Ford. Hell in 2003-2004 Ford's balance sheet showed they had $161 Billion in Debt.

Alright now, in all seriousness, that is a bit on the Twilight Zone side of reality. I could talk about my becoming the King of England, but it doesn't make the idea any less improbable. The notion that GM was somehow ever going to buy Ford was so far-fetched it literally wasn't worth talking about.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by syr74

Alright now, in all seriousness, that is a bit on the Twilight Zone side of reality. I could talk about my becoming the King of England, but it doesn't make the idea any less improbable. The notion that GM was somehow ever going to buy Ford was so far-fetched it literally wasn't worth talking about.

In terms of Business... not far fetched at all. "Purchasing" Ford would have been by the same process by which Fiat "purchased" Chrysler. Considering Ford's financial situation at that time.. and GM still being profitable at the time (2004)... not far fetched at all.

Just for fun tho.. GM actually did try to buy Ford at one time. It was before it got Chevy.. waaaaaaay back in the olden days of its beginning. If I remember correctly, they were looking to buy it for $9 Million.. but didn't have the money at the time.

Sorry.

Please everyone consider that this thread is not trying to go into history and dredge up old facts. It was strictly talking about the here and now.

The issue I have is that the media grabs hold of a "Hero Company" every two years.. and then we get a bunch of hype. The last company we saw get the HOLY treatment was Toyota.. and we all see how that misplaced sainthood has been going down the toilet.