Perceptions Die... OK Say Again Y Foreign is Better

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

Just for fun tho.. GM actually did try to buy Ford at one time. It was before it got Chevy.. waaaaaaay back in the olden days of its beginning. If I remember correctly, they were looking to buy it for $9 Million.. but didn't have the money at the time.

iirc, wasn't it because the owner of GM at the moment couldn't secure a loan in time to do so? I seem to remember talk about how so very close they were to the acquisition.

[lil_chef]

there is nothing to disagree with.

most of the people buying the XTS either wont care or wont be able to tell the difference if it's FWD or RWD. if cadillac puts as much attention into it as it did to the new CTS (i know they will) the XTS will be a class leading vehicle, FWD or RWD.

[Cmicasa the Great XvX]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

iirc, wasn't it because the owner of GM at the moment couldn't secure a loan in time to do so? I seem to remember talk about how so very close they were to the acquisition.

Billy Durant

[lil_chef]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

ahhh its great to speak with the famous Cmicasa. it seems you were one of the few sources of reason over there.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

The thing is.. and what I am saying is that these brands should have never been created in the first place. Saturn was an unnecessary brand whose funding would have better served Olsmobile or even Chevy in GM's mission to combat the then growing threat from Asia.

Hummer should have simply been a trim level of GMC. In fact.. GMC should have been Hummer. Meaning that in 2002 GM should have taken GMC and split in into "Professional" for a biable competitor alternate to Land Rover and a "Rugged" but still premium competitor to Jeep.

The original Saturn was a great idea and did a lot for GM in terms of perception and import wining, it built a great reputation for service and reliability and won quite a few sales back from imports, or prevented their loss to imports. It just never realized its potential and was too expensive to operate. So they folded it into the rest of GM. The time to sell it was 10 years ago when they had an independent design studio, manufacturing plant, and dealer network. It was a pre packaged car company.

But the 'new' Saturn essentially was Oldsmobile, for about 5 years. Now its dying just like Olds did. There isn't much market share left between the entry level brands (Chevrolet) and low end lux (Buick). As a result, the two in between (Pontiac and Saturn) have been squeezed out.

Hummer, I agree on the 'Hummer Edition' GMC's. Make it their off road performance trucks, while Denali would remain as a luxury trim.

[1320junkie]

Didnt GM buy the Hummer brand from AM General?

[lil_chef]

everything is always easier to correct in hindsight. what we must hope is that the current leaders of GM learn from the company's past mistakes.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

In terms of Business... not far fetched at all. "Purchasing" Ford would have been by the same process by which Fiat "purchased" Chrysler. Considering Ford's financial situation at that time.. and GM still being profitable at the time (2004)... not far fetched at all.

Actually, absolute business terms are exclusively how I am looking at this and, in reality, there was absolutely no way. Why? First, GM was already using 'creative' book keeping by then hiding the fact that they were losing far more money than was Ford. Nothing illegal here mind you, but it does tend to put off investors for obvious reasons and is more often than not little more than a temporary patch that bites you on the backside in the end when you finally have to claim those losses.

The problem this presents as regards GM buying Ford is that nobody who knew anything about business was fooled by it, which is typical. And even if they could have hidden those realities from everybody the necessary financing for any such deal would have absolutely required that GM lay bare their actual monetary situation which would have caused obvious problems. To be blunt, from a strictly business perspective, Ford was arguably in a much better position to buy GM in 2004 than GM would have been to attempt buying Ford. GM was losing more money and hadn't yet claimed any of it, which is actually bad if you want to take out a loan, GM also lacked the easy liquid assets Ford has taken advantage of by selling off brands like Jaguar, Land Rover, and in the near future Volvo which is part of the reason Ford went for a loan and GM didn't. People often want to believe Ford just had the foresight to get a loan when the reality is that GM probably didn't have the collateral for a worthwhile loan, a reality which translates into any discussion of trying to buy anything.

Arguing in either direction is pointless since both companies would have gone bankrupt in near record time had they tried to swallow the other, but the notion that GM somehow got in trouble 'suddenly' and was in a much superior financial position prior to 2005 just doesn't hold water.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

iirc, wasn't it because the owner of GM at the moment couldn't secure a loan in time to do so? I seem to remember talk about how so very close they were to the acquisition.

Much like the potential Ford acquisition of Ferrari you leave out one small issue, the willingness of the buyer to part with the company. Ford stock is traded on the open market but the family has always owned a majority share. In other words, without the consent of Henry, Edsel, Henry II, Bill Sr., or Bill Jr. you can't buy Ford Motor. And, historically, every man mentioned above has been vehemently against such an action.

As such, any talk of GM buying Ford has always been pure fantasy.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by lil_chef

everything is always easier to correct in hindsight. what we must hope is that the current leaders of GM learn from the company's past mistakes.

Looks like operating 8 brands in 1 market is a bad idea. Though I think it was 10 for a while:

Buick
Cadilac
Chevrolet
Daewoo
GMC
Hummer
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Saab
Saturn

I'm not sure where Isuzu fit in, I think GM was a 50% shareholder at the time. So call it 10.5 brands in north america in the late 90's / early 2000's.

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by syr74

Much like the potential Ford acquisition of Ferrari you leave out one small issue, the willingness of the buyer to part with the company. Ford stock is traded on the open market but the family has always owned a majority share. In other words, without the consent of Henry, Edsel, Henry II, Bill Sr., or Bill Jr. you can't buy Ford Motor. And, historically, every man mentioned above has been vehemently against such an action.

As such, any talk of GM buying Ford has always been pure fantasy.

This is speculation on my part, but I'm sure the one's mentioned above would have rather seen the company go on instead of being selfish and wanting the company to die with them.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by a_Username

This is speculation on my part, but I'm sure the one's mentioned above would have rather seen the company go on instead of being selfish and wanting the company to die with them.

Actually, I think you might be surprised. That said, there always were and always will be more attractive options than a GM takeover if Ford should find itself in such dire straits.

Worth mentioning, GM approached Ford about the possibility of a merger between the two companies, Ford said no. Even more, there is and long has been strong speculation that Ford was offered the reigns of GM when that company filed for bankruptcy, and Ford said no thanks. The fact that Bill Ford was/is an adviser the committee that is helping to get GM back on track only strengthens that rumor.

Again, the notion that Ford Motor was ripe for the picking by GM is far fetched to be kind....the possibility that Ford was offered the proverbial keys to GM, possibly more than once, and turned it down far less so

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by syr74

Actually, I think you might be surprised. That said, there always were and always will be more attractive options than a GM takeover if Ford should find itself in such dire straits.

Worth mentioning, GM approached Ford about the possibility of a merger between the two companies, Ford said no. Even more, there is and long has been strong speculation that Ford was offered the reigns of GM when that company filed for bankruptcy, and Ford said no thanks. The fact that Bill Ford was/is an adviser the committee that is helping to get GM back on track only strengthens that rumor.

Again, the notion that Ford Motor was ripe for the picking by GM is far fetched to be kind....the possibility that Ford was offered the proverbial keys to GM, possibly more than once, and turned it down far less so

Well from a business standpoint, the owners of Ford are idiots if your speculation is correct.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by a_Username

Well from a business standpoint, the owners of Ford are idiots if your speculation is correct.

Why? I'm a capitalist of the highest order and I too would have said no were I in their position, and I would have done so without hesitation.