Perceptions Die... OK Say Again Y Foreign is Better

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Looks like operating 8 brands in 1 market is a bad idea. Though I think it was 10 for a while:

Buick
Cadilac
Chevrolet
Daewoo
GMC
Hummer
Oldsmobile
Pontiac
Saab
Saturn

I'm not sure where Isuzu fit in, I think GM was a 50% shareholder at the time. So call it 10.5 brands in north america in the late 90's / early 2000's.

Globally you are missing Vauxhall, Opel, Holden. Daewoo was killed off as a U.S. brand before GM bought in.

JVs, Isuzu, Suzuki, Subaru, Wooling (sic), SAIC,

Originally Posted by Xanthos

Not to mention that competing with yourself is a bad idea. If you have multiple cars that fill the same spot and have the same buyers, thats a problem.

Not that you lose sale, but you increase costs without actually gaining any sales. Just as bad for profits as losing sales.
- X

P.S. - GM, I would totally buy this if you made it a GMC.



No joke. DOOOO EEIIIITTT!

X, GM ruled when it really only competed with itself. We had 4 small block V8s, 3 big block V8s. In a regional economy, it worked great.

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

I can see what U are saying but still have to disagree on overall necessity of Saturn in the first place. In 1990, even.. GM, Ford, and Chrysler controlled the market so much so (see Chart below) that they simply had to put force and cash into reworking existing brands rather than try and tout new ones. Saturn, for instance, wasn't purchased by consumers because the thought they were buying an American nameplate.. but quite possibly just the opposite. Many people to this day that I speak to still thought Saturn was a Japanese maker.

If GM had of taken that money it invested in Saturn.. a "from the ground up" operation.. and invested it in Chevy, Olds, or Pontiac.. or all three.. they could have snagged back buyers who were looking at Foreign nameplates. In 1985... 1985.. GM spent $3.5 BILLION on just the Spring Hill Plant alone. Also keep in mind $3.5 Billion 25 years ago would be $7.3 Billion today. If GM took $7 billion today and spent it on Chevy, Buick, Cadillac, and inadvertently thru Chevy for GMC... a Malibu would be the equivlent to an Acura TL... a Buick Lacrosse would be on the same level as Lexus's LS460.. a CTS would be equivalent to a Benz CLS.

The Saturn play was to be able to create a company with separate engineering, manufacturing and retail that could complete more directly with the import brands. At the time it was a good idea, but it was starved for product from the onset. The L series was failure, even though it outsold the far superior Aura 2 to 1.

At the time, it was probably a rationale idea. Looking back, not so much.

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

U could throw in Suzuki and part of Subaru as well. GM owned about 20% in Subie and even more in Suzuki.

And I agree with what U are saying. The real issue is not so much that GM has as many brands... but that we have so many name/companies taking a slice of the U.S. market in general.

have to say.. GM as a WHOLE.. with all brands.. including Hummer is just FINE. We are not talking about the financials here.. as in my honest opinion it is not the 8 Brands that have cause the issues within GM's situation... but the Overhead of both Labor, plant waste, and Financial downturns from GMAC.

One can argue for DAYS about the need for Killing a brand.. here... and merging a brand... there... but truth is If GM should get rid of it's 8 brands... then America as a whole needs to get rid of at least 20-30 more of the brands that currently occupies the selling atmosphere. Many have no clue that in the U.S. we currently have 50 Brands on sale... 50!!!

Acura, Hyundai, Morgan, Aston Martin, Infiniti, Nissan, Audi, Isuzu, Bentley, Jaguar, Panoz, BMW, Jeep, Pontiac, Buick, Kia, Porsche, Cadillac, Lamborghini, Rolls-Royce, Chevrolet, Land Rover, Saab, Lexus, Saleen, Chrysler, Lincoln, Saturn, Dodge, Lotus, Scion, Maserati, smart, Ferrari, Maybach, Subaru, Ford, Mazda, Suzuki, Tesla, GMC, Mercedes-Benz, Toyota, Mercury, Honda, MINI, Volkswagen, HUMMER, Mitsubishi, and Volvo

See??? I told U...

LMFAO at the idea that any 1 company could have a 20% market share with 42 other brands competing with it.. let alone next month's 22%. I often LAUGH at the lunacy when certain forum members talk about GM's Market share in the 60's.. hell even in the 90's. They fail EVERYTIME to mention that in the 60s... it was pretty GM, Ford, Chrysler, and a coupla Foreign makes from Toyota, Benz, and VW.


Bottom line is that if GM didn't need cash to bolster it's bank book... Hummer would probably not be 4 sale... It is actually very successful as a brand... very profitable and required very little money to implement. Even R&D is minimal since it is completely based on existing platforms and engines. A Merger of the brand with GMC would be the proper course.

Yeah, not quite true. It was a good business when the H2 sold 30,000 units or so. The replacement was big bucks, carryover content not withstanding. Tooling up a new H2 of an existing architecture is far from cheap and the R&D required is significant due to the extreme capapbility of that vehicle. If the price of gas and the heat from the environmentalists stayed low........maybe. But gas spiked last year and the greenies rally around the H2 so volumes plummeted. A lot of money divided across very few sales does not a good business case make.

[Bullitt]

Originally Posted by Cmicasa the Great XvX

...Ecoboost??? Come on. It's a marketing scheme similar to "HEMI."...

Yeah, whatever.

http://tech.msn.com/products/slidesh...9&imageindex=7

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Bullitt

Yeah, whatever.

http://tech.msn.com/products/slidesh...9&imageindex=7

EcoBoost isn't new technology at all. Ford just gave it a fancy name.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Globally you are missing Vauxhall, Opel, Holden. Daewoo was killed off as a U.S. brand before GM bought in.

JVs, Isuzu, Suzuki, Subaru, Wooling (sic), SAIC,

Thanks, I didn't know that about Daewoo. I did know of the other global brands but didn't include then because they weren't sold in this market. How much of Suzuki and Subaru did they have? I know that GM built the Tracker on the same platform as a Suzuki at the plant where they now built the Equinox. Speaking of the Tracker, there's one more defunct brand we forgot: Geo. Talk about useless brands ...

So I guess it was still 10 GM brands sold in North America in the late 90's. Next year it will be 4.

[MCPOAJ]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

EcoBoost isn't new technology at all. Ford just gave it a fancy name.

exactly

[Georgie]

not new but still a cool engine (v6 ecoboost)

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Thanks, I didn't know that about Daewoo. I did know of the other global brands but didn't include then because they weren't sold in this market. How much of Suzuki and Subaru did they have? I know that GM built the Tracker on the same platform as a Suzuki at the plant where they now built the Equinox. Speaking of the Tracker, there's one more defunct brand we forgot: Geo. Talk about useless brands ...

So I guess it was still 10 GM brands sold in North America in the late 90's. Next year it will be 4.

We owned about 20% of Suzuki and Subaru. But the Suzuki deal was a bit more complicated. The ownership deal was entangled by the JV plant in Canada that now builds the Equinox/Terrain and a strange ownership triangle in GMDAT (Daewoo).

BTW, in Korea, over half of the buyers now pay an extra $250 or so to get the Chevy conversion package which gives you the Bow Tie. I believe Daewoo as a brand is going away. It is only in Korea now. Everywhere else they are Chevys.

I think Isuzu was 49% at one point. I believe like China there are laws that prohibit ownership beyond a minority stake.

And yes forgot about Geo. Actually owned a Geo Spectrum wayy back when I had my Grand National.

[brandotron]

Dude, what's up with the bold typeface in every thread? Stop internet-yelling, you're making my brain hurt.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

iirc, wasn't it because the owner of GM at the moment couldn't secure a loan in time to do so? I seem to remember talk about how so very close they were to the acquisition.

Henry Ford would only take payment in cash as I recall. No stock deals like much of GM was built on.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

EcoBoost isn't new technology at all. Ford just gave it a fancy name.

It was NEW enough to get 125 NEW patents.

[Number 3]

Ok, Cmicasa, all good points, but I will tell you why Ford is "on a roll".

First of all, perception is reality. GM is fighting that in big way these days.

People forget that in '06, Ford was going down and mortgaged the farm (including the blue oval and family name on it). But as GM was taking government loans, Ford was quietly borrowing penny for penny. But the press downplayed or didn't cover it. So they seem "better" in comparison. And for some it is merely enough that they didn't take assitance from the government (loans or bailout).

Second, Ford has made TREMENDOUS leaps in the Consumer Reports reliability ranking. They have achieved a very comendable position rivaling Toyota in the number of recommended buys. Now we can discuss the reality of consumer based surveys in quality, but I've talked to people at Ford and they've made real progress here.

Back to point 1, the Fusion Hybrid trumps everything on the road except the Prius. It is outstanding technology. Now we can discuss at length the money losing proposition that hybrids are (and they are in case anyone was wondering), but Ford can now simply market this technology and the perception of Ford improves.

Ford's new FST is a solid tripple. We've benchmarked them and it is a damn good truck. The GM entries still stack up well, but Ford did a great job in a profitable segment and last I saw they had increasing sales numbers.

Then you can go to the European entries Ford is talking about bringing over here. They have the new small van available now, the Fiesta coming as well as the Focus. So far the press in the U.S. is giving them big thumbs up. The business model for European cars in the U.S. is always problematic. The example I use is the Opel/Saturn Astra. In Europe, with manual windows, steel wheels and no A/C, the car sells for 19,000 plus VAT. The Saturn with power windows, locks and A/C standard was around $15,000. So it is yet to be seen how well those cars will do here from a financial standpoint, but in Europe the magazines always favor the Ford products, specifically the Mondeo and Focus.

And yet to come is the new Explorer, which from what I hear should be pretty nice.

So just like GM, they need to translate it to the bottom line and improve sales.

Don't get me wrong, GM is well positioned to counter Ford and Toyota over the next few years. But Ford is quietly getting it's act together and is a formidable competitor.

Oh and we could talk about Mustang, but this being a Camaro website, I guess that would be a moot point.

So not disagreeing with much posted earlier, but simply stating Ford is on a role because everybody seems to believe they are. When GM goes public next year and sheds the Government Motors cracks, should be a level playing field and will be down to product.

"May the best car win"

Oh, and we could talk abou the "what might have been" RWD Impala replacement that CAFE killed.....................would have burried the Taurus and SHO.

[cHaotix]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh, and we could talk abou the "what might have been" RWD Impala replacement that CAFE killed.....................would have burried the Taurus and SHO.

By all means, please do.

[All-Or-Nothing]

Well to address the title here are some reasons FORD is on a roll

F150 will be best seller for 33rd straight year

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...o-fourth-31229

Ford sees record 3rd quarter sales

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...-quarter-31186

FORD OF EUROPE BREAKS 10 PER CENT MARKET SHARE BARRIER

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...per-cent-31181

Ford Focus RS exceeds 38mpg (it's really good news)

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...ds-38mpg-31149

Ford Canada sales up 24%

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...5-driven-31115

[coolman]

Originally Posted by All-Or-Nothing

Well to address the title here are some reasons FORD is on a roll

F150 will be best seller for 33rd straight year

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...o-fourth-31229

Ford sees record 3rd quarter sales

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...-quarter-31186

FORD OF EUROPE BREAKS 10 PER CENT MARKET SHARE BARRIER

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...per-cent-31181

Ford Focus RS exceeds 38mpg (it's really good news)

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...ds-38mpg-31149

Ford Canada sales up 24%

http://www.ford.com/about-ford/news-...5-driven-31115