Zeta (Camaro/Commodore/G8) suspension details

[Slave One]

Originally Posted by Gatecrasher

I can't speak about the headers, but do you really think the plugs will be that bad? Half the engine isn't hiding under the cowl like the 4th gen. It looks pretty open under there.

I KNOW! That was one of the things I hated so much about giving up my 3rd Gen for my 4th Gen v6... My 3rd Gen was SOOO much easier to work on, engine was easier to get to...

Cool thing is, looks like we are gonna get back some space under the hood so us DIY'ers can DIY, lol...

Now, that suspension, OTOH, while I think its GREAT that we are getting IRS finally, I dont think Ima be touching much of it of my car, lol. Gonna have to classify that under trannys and engine internals cuz I'm leaving that to professionals, lol.

[Fandango]

A little help here please.

The GX8 and the Camaro are going to have similar or identical suspensions?

If I'm out in left field I'm sorry.

[DGthe3]

It is expected that the Camaro will be at least very similar to the other Zetas. Based on the handing qualities of the G8 I would imagine that they could be identical.

[The_Blur]

Let's just make it a headerback and make it really loud and exhaust-pipeless.

[JusticePete]

I have taken delivery of mt G8 GT with Sport Package and Luxury Group. These are my driving impressions.

G8 Evaluation and Pedderisation

Over the last week we have started Pedderising G8s in the USA. My personal G8 will be a GT with the Sport Package and Sunroof – Pedders style. If you have seen the Pedders GTO, you’ll know what that means. Before any one even thinks about it, and that includes my wife, the G8 is an addition to our garage. You’ll see both of us at a number of events this year. Both of us meaning the G8 and GTO. We will start with the driving impressions of a bone stock G8 with the Sport Package.

G8 Evaluation
The Pontiac G8 arrives from Australia in GT / Sport Package trim with the front ride height at 660mm and the rear ride height at 559mm. It sits rather tall as though it were an AWD sedan. These heights are deceptive in that the rear wheel arch is lower and smaller than the front. The result is that while the ride heights are virtually identical the rear of the vehicle sits considerably higher than the front. It sits high in the bum. The OE dampers fitted to the G8 are NG – No Gas. These are basic oil and air units installed to keep the price point down – perhaps due to the increase strength of the Aussie dollar.

My initial drives of the G8 left me both impressed and disappointed. The VE chassis delivers almost everything we expected and yet disappointed at the same time. It is a tiger that feels tamed - it feels light and floats in sweepers and at high speeds. This is the Pontiac flagship and I wanted this tiger to claw through a turn. The car sits too tall, is sprung too soft, damped too light with a too much body lean and roll in. Even the ride is too light in my opinion

The all new rear suspension architecture is excellent. The integrity of the chassis design adds depth to the driving experience. The rear suspension has sufficient structure to support the most aggressive driving. The three point differential mount is a significant improvement over the GTO. The sub-frame attaches with a four point mount. The upper and lower control arms are another significant advance over the VZ chassis. Adding trailing arms puts the G8 on another level.

The front suspension is more evolutionary than the all new rear design. The familiar GTO strut assembly mounts to the vehicle with the exact same strut mount as the GTO. The lower control arm runs from the knuckle to the front sub-frame. The radius rod Z bar GTO design has been replaced by a more modern arm. The radius rod mounts to the front with a steel-jacketed hydraulic bush. It ties to the knuckle with a joint.

The G8 uses a virtual pivot point suspension in the front. The benefit is that the wheel pivot is moved out from the inside of the clevis / knuckle to a virtual point of intersection that is closer to the outside of the tire. Where the GTO plowed through turns the G8 storms through turns. The scrubbing that was typical on my GTO with a highly tuned complete Pedders suspension is gone from the OE G8 suspension. This is a direct result of balance -- the weight distribution is spot on – almost 50/50 though most magazines have weighed the G8 in at 51/49 – chassis integrity and a more advanced design.

The G8 is an excellent car in OE trim. It has the potential to be dramatically better. While the GTO arrived in the USA with a more traditionally tuned performance suspension as would be expected in a performance coupe. The higher than the sedan version of the VZ chassis coil and damping rates were judged to be too soft for a performance coupe by many owners in the USA. The G8 arrives as a performance sedan. The difference in obvious is ride heights, spring and damping rates. On your first G8 test drive you will notice that there is an enormous amount of body lean and roll. This is directly related to ride height, spring and damping rates. With smooth driver inputs and modest amounts of throttle the G8 will blast through twists and turns. As a driver you must ignore the lean and roll. The car will go where you point it.

If you accelerate hard out of a turn you will identify the primary weakness in the G8 platform. The rear –sub-frame connectors allow far too much twisting and turning of the sub-frame in relation to the monocoque. This is very different from the GTO. The new G8 sub-frame mounts to the monocoque with four sub-frame bushes. The G8 rear suspension design is similar to the excellent Mercedes derived Chrysler LX platform (Charger, Magnum, 300C and Challenger). The sub-frame bush squirm does not explode in violent wheel hop as you would encounter in the GTO. In the G8 the sub-frame motion results in rear end step out and rear end bumpsteer. This is evident when you run an aggressive slalom using heavy braking and acceleration.

Judging the G8 by the spring rate, damping rate or body lean in relationship to older less advanced vehicles would be a mistake. The bone stock G8 is a more advanced design that performs better than the previous generation GM / Holden / Pontiac VZ chassis.
Suspension is always subjective. What is too hard for some will be too soft for others. The G8 in GT trim with a Sport Package feels too light and floaty to me. The car leans an enormous amount, but does hold the line through tight turns. High speed cruising feels just a bit light. It is not in any way unstable, but it is too light for my taste. It doesn’t inspire the same confidence you would experience in a Benz or BMW. Just as the GTO was a significant step up in the GM performance coupe tradition from the F-Body the G8 is a huge advance from the GTO. There are differences of substance. The G8 should be a smooth ride luxury performance sedan. If you are expecting ZO6 Corvette flat corning, you bought the wrong car. If you were expecting a BMW the G8 is close but not close enough.

G8 Low Hanging Fruit

1. Sub-Frame Bushing Inserts, Pedders EP1169
2. Front and Rear Lowering Coils: Pedders 2954 & 2955
3. Pedders GSR Front Struts: 9464L & 9464R
4. Pedders GSR Rear Struts: 9295
5. Front Castor Correction: 5121

Adding Pedders sub-frame inserts to the G8 completely changes the character of the vehicle. GM did it right with the mounting point. The G8 sub-frame mounts with two long ‘pilots’ from the monocoque passing through the larger rear pair of sub-frame bushes. The installation of these eight inserts seemed to reduce the trace amounts of noise from sub-frame to monocoque contact under extremely aggressive maneuvers. The car becomes significantly more predictable which is a surprise as the platform was already very good. Pedders engineers did a brilliant job of using the existing sub-frame bushes. This simplifies installation and reduces your completed costs for parts and labor. This is hands down the biggest bang for the buck mod for the G8.

With a more predictable rear suspension from the installation of Pedders EP1169, your next limiting factor is the ride height and damping rate. The G8 is a luxury performance sedan. You don’t want top turn this world class vehicle into a boy-racer kidney-belt required hot rod. To that end the changes in ride height for the G8 are roughly 20mm in the front with fresh Pedders 5851 strut mounts and 40mm in the rear. These changes allow the car to sit with a slight front to rear rake 622mm rear and 640mm front.

The G8 does use the same strut mount, the exact same strut mount as the GTO. We are finding 4 to 6mm of compression in fresh off the boat G8s. A modest increase in spring rate paired with Pedders nitrogen charged GSR dampers bring the G8 to life. Pedderised it drives like true performance sedan while retaining a luxury sedan like ride. It is easy to drive this car hard. The light sensation at high speed is gone. The rear step out, the rear bumpsteer, is banished. Suspension travel with your lowered ride height is long enough to be supple over most any road while delivering an amazing driving experience. Does it have more body lean and role than a maxed out GTO – it does. Does it ride better than a GTO – yes it does. Does it drive better than a GTO – yes it does.

Because the Pedderised G8 is so quiet and composed, high speeds seem to occur in slow motion. The G8 is a serious vehicle for the sophisticated driver that truly appreciates sophisticated automobiles. Because it is so balanced the Pedderised G8 is almost effortless to drive. Stability and Predictability are the primary characteristics that will leave you with SEGS. Take your time and learn the limits of your newly Pedderised G8 on a road course or an autocross. A Pedderised G8 is as weapon of higher priced vehicle destruction with minor suspension upgrades.

Concerns

There are some concerns I have after getting into the G8 Pedderisation. While the wear of the OE strut mount bush in the GTO is well documented, there is some cause for concern with the use of the same mount in the G8. In the GTO, the upper spring perch / bearing plate had a rather modest angle. In the new G8 the upper spring perch / strut bearing plate is on a more aggressive angle. This increases the clearance between the strut tub and the tire sidewall. It is also designed to lighten the load on the bush / mount. There is no cause for concern that we will see strut rub in the G8. What we will see, in my opinion, is wear in the strut mount requiring routine maintenance for those who drive hard.

Before we wring our hands about this, the removal and installation of new strut mounts is roughly a 90 minute job. Replacing the mount with an OE or Pedders bit will be roughly $80 in parts. That is a small price to pay in annual maintenance cost to drive such an exciting luxury performance sedan. If you visit the BMW forums you will find that BMW has numerous issues with various suspension bushes. Even the ultimate driving machine has bush failures. Once again it is my opinion that the driving style of the performance luxury sedans contributes to the issues. Performance vehicles require performance based maintenance programs. An annual alignment, strut mount replacement including parts and labor is less expensive than picking up a cup of coffee at Starbucks on your way to work.

On two of the G8s I have seen on racks, the driver’s side parking brake cable was stretched across a hard metal sub-frame edge. GM / Holden / Pontiac seem to be aware of the chafe potential. The cable is protected by a yellow plastic anti-chafe device. These two cars had already shown signs of wear in the yellow plastic. We wrapped them with a piece of heat hose zip tied in place. It is a short list of concerns.

Pedderisation: Pontiacs, Businesses and People
Pedders USA, LLC will be campaigning a Pedderised G8. I pick up and Pedderise my new G8 at Brian Harris Pontiac Buick GMC on April 8, 2008 – THANK YOU William Southall!. With the help of their lead Pedders technician we will install a full Pedders eXtreme Suspension before my family and I drive our new G8 from Slidell, Louisiana to West Olive, Michigan. We’ll post photos of the car before, during, after and include our road trip. That is the first leg of our trip in the G8 build.

Step #2 With the assistance of Disc Brakes of Australia (DBA) we will be installing a DBA Big Brake Package.

Step #3 is courtesy of ProCharger, our original marketing partner. ProCharger will prototype and install their G8 forced induction system. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

Step #4 Corsa will handle the exhaust. I love the G8 quiet cabin, but this tiger does need a bit more growl….

Step # 5 Early on, we’ll be adding coolers for oil, trans and power steering. We have yet to determine what we should do with the interior, tires and wheels.

Step #6 More Road Trips and Events! The Pedders USA, LLC G8 will be on the Hot Rod Power Tour, the GTOAAs, the LX Nationals in Ohio, the Camaro Superfest and a couple of other events before the year is over.

As I close this initial installment of Pedderise My G8, I want to mention how excited I am to be involved with Pontiac community, the GTO community, G8 Community and the automotive community. Our car culture is an amazing blend of diverse groups of people with a common interest. The G8 project will take me to places I had never dreamed of and people that I would never have met as did my original journey with my GTO. As many of you know, I lost my mother last month. The support provided from people I would never have known had I not become involved with the GTO and Pedders was incredible. In 2008 armed with a G8 and a GTO I can only imagine what the year will bring. Life is an adventure best traveled in a Pedderised Pontiac...eeeerrrrr Pedderised Camaro.... Pedderised GM, LOL!









To answer questions asked in this thread:

The rear suspension design addresses every concern that existed in the VZ IRS. The differential mount is vastly superior, the mounting point for the sub-frame doubled, the half-shafts are stronger, the assembly has sufficient structure to support real coilovers, and the list goes on.

The engine is accessible for service of the plugs and other items.

Lowered as it will arrive in Camaro trim, this will be the best Camaro by light-years over the last Camaro. There will be some revisions in the Camaro chassis compared to the G8, but they will be more revision than really different from or new bits. Lower than the OE G8 height in OE Camaro trim, be prepared to be thrilled!

Baseline Dyno Numbers 305 RWHP 325 Torque out of the LS3 / L76
Pedders G8 / ProCharger Links:
ProCharger Blog
Pedders G8 Build Almost Live

Pedders will have complete systems for your Camaro when they arrive in showrooms that have already been in service in AU and the USA for two years. My wife and four girls have already explained the facts of life to me. Apparently we will be taking delivery of a convertible Camaro that will be ProCharged and Pedderised upon delivery. How could I say no?

[2001ragtop]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Suspension is always subjective. What is too hard for some will be too soft for others. The G8 in GT trim with a Sport Package feels too light and floaty to me. The car leans an enormous amount, but does hold the line through tight turns. High speed cruising feels just a bit light....

I have a feeling lots of people who are used to tight suspensions will agree with you if the car (G8 or Camaro) is too soft. I think American pony cars are always soft. I don't like having a floating feeling on the highway.

Thank you for keeping the Camaro community saturated with info like this. I personally want to get up to speed on understanding this new design. I don't mind a system with so many links as long as it's reliable/durable.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

The G8 that we put the Pedders suspension on is very similar to what the Camaro will be. I can tell you from a previous 3rd gen owner's prospective, your going to crap your pants when you drive this car. It's light years ahead of anything that you've driven previously with F-bodies.

[Chevyrocker]

nice find...one can only hope for true duals...

[JusticePete]

I spent some time in the Detroit area in the last few weeks on 'business'. There are dedicated Mustang owners that are going to under go a conversion of faith when the new Camaro hits the streets. It is that good!!! Pedderised... I don't have the words...you will just have to drive one. I will be at the Carmaro Superfest in Ypsilanti in a few weeks. I'll only be there on Sunday, but I will have a ProCharged, Pedderised G8 with a Corsa exhaust for show and tell and probably a few test rides. It is a close as you can get to driving a Camaro unless your are a GM Project Camaro Staffer.

[JusticePete]

Indianapolis Pedders Day and Damper Sales Saturday, June 28, 2008

One of our best Dealers is holding their annual Pedders Day. I'll have my eXtreme Pedderised Procharged G8 with a CORSA exhaust at this event. It is a great way to get a PREVIEW of your ZETA II Camaro. You are all welcome to attend this event with your CAMARO. You can read more about the eXtreme Coilover and ProCharger installations at this link: http://forums.peddersusa.com/showthread.php?t=328

It started as a classic GTO event and has expanded to include the PONTIAC G8 and ALL our friends with MOPAR MUSCLE. We get a GREAT showing of Classic and Late Model GTOs and welcome a lineup of Classic and Late Model MOPAR Muscle at the event. We will be doing our first LX Track II installation here in the next few weeks Jamey and his crew will be LX Certified. They are already GTO, GMT900, Solstice, Skye, Cobalt, HHR, G5 and G8 Pedders Shop Certified.

Indianapolis is Pedders Largest Service Center. They also service the military Hummers stationed in Indianapolis. When you visit their Service Facilities and meet their Staff you will understand why they have a stellar reputation.. We have used Jamey for R&D because of their state-of-the-art service facilities and capacity. If Eric isn’t the USA Under Car Superstar for Pedders USA then he is 1A. You will appreciate the hospitality. You will enjoy the Car Guy Atmosphere. You will be welcome with your Mopar Muscle, G8, Solstice, GTP, G6, GTO… you get the idea. If you ask nicely, we may even let a Mustang owner in, well maybe…

FREE 28 Point Inspections
FREE Food and Drinks
Show and Shine
Door Prizes

Indianapolis Pedders Day
1250 US 31 South
Greenwood, IN 46143
Saturday, June 28, 2008
9 to 4

[JusticePete]

I didn't disappear. I don't work at Pedders. It is worse. I own it. I, we, Pedders try to respect all forum rules and online communities. If we are not supposed to post here please let us know. Here is the latest on the Camaro suspension.

Pedders has been working on a special Camaro project. There is some information we can post in the forum and other information we are not allowed to post until it is released officially by GM. Based on the car that was displayed at the Woodward Cruise last week, we can release this information.



FRONT SUSPENSION

Front Geometry





Front Strut, Coil and Boot



Strut, Endlink and Tie Rod



REAR SUSPENSION

Trailing and Radius Arms



Forward Sub-frame Bush



Aft Sub-frame Bush



Coil Over Shock



Sway Bar, Endlinks and CV Shafts



There is no wheel hop in this chassis as is common with IRS vehicles. We can tell you that the IRS is robust. The front suspension slightly modified from the ZETA / VE / Commodore G8 with essentially stronger control arms designed to handle more power with larger wheel and tire combinations. The ZETA II Camaro may well be the most structurally sound vehicle in the GM line-up exceeding the strength of the 322 / CTS. Keep in mind the CTS is as strong or stronger than the alleged best of the best coming out of Europe.

The Camaro as delivered from the Dealer will be the best of the Modern Muscle on the road and with modification to the engine and suspension capable of running with anything short of the exotics. There is a reason Chevy built the ZR1. It is called the Camaro.

[shank0668]

The Camaro as delivered from the Dealer will be the best of the Modern Muscle on the road and with modification to the engine and suspension capable of running with anything short of the exotics. There is a reason Chevy built the ZR1. It is called the Camaro.


[/QUOTE]

if this is true

[JusticePete]

There is another knee jerk reaction you'll get when you drive one

[Txturbo]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

There is another knee jerk reaction you'll get when you drive one

Any hint at pricing on a suspension package for the Camaro?