Living with history

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by 2010 SSRS

Barret Jackson in 25 years, the untouched low mileage SSRS Camaros will be taking in big money.

You better believe it. Stock cars is where the BIG money is at. Custom or modified bring WAY less money in most cases.

[Rogue Leader]

Originally Posted by navmaxlp

I have to respectfully disagree. The argument that there are a lot of these being made doesn't make sense. How many 69 were made? A whole lot of them. There were also more options on the 69. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but the 69 had more available options than any other car ever made (I believe 90 something options). The 69 camaros are worth more because they are rare now, true, but more importantly, they are worth more because they were iconic. Arguably more iconic than any other car of it's day. The 2010 camaro is the same car. It is arguably more iconic than any other car in recent history and it's going to be hard to come up with a more identifiable car anytime soon. I'm not going to say the camaro is the car that saved GM but it had a huge part in it. Every child you see knows the camaro as Bumblebee. These two things make the car special. Special cars are the ones people will look for in twenty years. Sure the challenger and the mustang will go for decent prices but, the camaro, even to a casual observer will bring in much higher figures. That doesn't even include the Nickey Chicagos and all the other professionally modded models.

The prices the classics are bringing in right now are huge. If you went back to 69 and told someone they could sell a camaro for close to $500,000 if they bought the right one, they would laugh and call you crazy. Doesn't make it untrue.

The other thing is, even though many people are claiming they will keep good care of their 2010, many won't. Accidents, long term use, lack of long term interest, all of these things will lead to owners allowing theirs fall into disrepair. People starting with the best of intentions will run into extenuating circumstances. I've already seen people on this board having to sell theirs for one reason or another. We've all seen the accident photos. I'm not saying this is going to be a super rare car in the future but honestly, the 69 isn't that rare either. Every auction I've ever seen has had a healthy supply of them and I've yet to see the same camaro twice. Prices range from 30k all the way up to over 500k. The difference in those is rarity.

And while I believe you that there are people out there buying one to drive and one to park, my assumption is that that is an extremely rare case. And what enthusiast will be able to let a camaro sit there in a garage and not drive it every so often. In 40 years, if a car doesn't have almost 100k miles on it, it will be very rare. Find one with below 50k and you're talking very very rare. Hell I got a car that's 3 years old with 95k on it right now. And, though I agree that the mindset back then was to drive it till it's used up, I don't think that necessarily applies to muscle cars. These were cars that appealed to an enthusiast crowd. People who loved their cars enough to spend extra time, money and energy making their cars even more special. Someone like that doesn't just throw the car away eventually. Especially the camaro. This car was made for those who couldn't afford the higher dollar muscle cars. The muscle car for every man. Not the type of car to be dismissed quickly.

In the end, 40 years from now, an iconic, rare car is the one that's going to bring in the big numbers. Right now, I challenge anyone to show me a more iconic, rare car than a low vin#, Nickey Chicago modded camaro.

Just an opinion

I see your point of view but I don't believe the Camaro is or will be the icon you believe it is. In the old days there were far fewer models of car to choose from. Yeah you could get some european cars, but for example back then they made like 200 Ferraris by hand a year, now they mass produce them, I think they made like 5000 or so F430s alone last year. Muscle cars defined a generation as they were the ONLY way you could get a performance car of any sort for a reasonable price. But the country is so much more diverse now and there are Performance cars from many brands foreign and domestic offering many types of performance.

Vehicles today are just too diverse and theres too many. Back then people feared a car such as a Yenko Camaro, because you could buy one, and tear up the track from day one and nobody could touch you, save maybe another Yenko, or a couple other cars. That was part of the mystique that people remember now that drives them towards wanting to purchase the car at whatever the cost. What did you have back then for tuner cars, Baldwin Motion, Yenko, and a couple others? Now theres 40 tuner models of Camaro none of which offer a model that will blaze performance wise over the others, nor will any be produced in any sort of numbers that it will decimate all over the country. Nor do you have any backdoor options like a true COPO which add to the mystique as well.

Theres a decent portion of this country that will look back not on the Camaro, but on the Mid-Late 90's Japanese Sports Car boom, where you could get cars like the Supra TT, RX7 Turbo, 300ZX TT, 3000GT VR4, NSX, etc. They could care less about the Camaro, or Mustang. Or the Sport compact craze with the Subaru STi, Mitsu Evo, Mazdaspeed 3, Cobalt SS, etc. The Muscle Car era of the late 60's was the first real era of its kind, and has since spawned many others. Many of which are just trying to mimic its success.

You're right they made a whole boatload of 69's, something like 250k in 1969 alone and because nobody gave a crap about fuel economy dealers stocked V8s cause that is what people bought so most of those cars are V8s of some sort. But as I said and you agreed noone expected them to be of any value some day. That doesn't mean nobody took care of them. Obviously some did. But there are plenty (WAYYYY MORE) of people today who DO believe their car will be worth something some day and DO park the car.

In that respect you have to consider that average household income has only risen 31% (in 2005 dollars) since 1967. However inflation has risen 162%. In 1969 (in 1969 Dollars) the average household income was about $23,000, (in 2005 dollars thats about $33k) in 2005 the average household income was $46,000 but the value of that dollar has dropped so significantly that Cars have become much more of a major purchase to someone. Think about it if your household income was $23k in 1969 and a Camaro cost $4k, thats only 17% of your yearly income where now if you make $46k and a Camaro is $40k thats 87% of your yearly income. That means a whole lot more people are gonna take care of their cars because they have a lot more invested in them. My dad used to tell me when he was young his cousins would wreck brand new cars drag racing all the time, go out and buy another like it was nothing, and my family was far from affluent. But back then buying a new car was not as much of a big deal financially as it is today.

Finally just because its rare doesn't make it valuable. Tuner cars need that mystique to be exceptonally more valuable than their standard counterparts, and as I mentioned theres no special backdoor options or special versions that are ultra desireable or will decimate all (ie the 427 COPO, or like on the chrysler side a Hemi, A12, etc). Little variables like chicklets and backup sensors noone will give a crap about. A few years ago I found one of six 1998 Trans Am WS6's in Purple Metallic for sale on cars.com I think. After speakting to him I found the guy coudn't give it away because while yes its rare... in the end its a purple Trans Am. Completely extreme example but a good one no less, rare does not equal valuable, there needs to be something to drive it against to make it worth money, between desire, and lack of supply.

[Stewcam]

Wow, I have had a pristine 68 Z28 that sold for $3,500 in 1981 a pristine 69 Z/28 that went for $13K in 1992 and a very nice 70-1/2 Z/28 that went for $4,200 in 1988. Based on the numbers of the new camaros they are commodities that will never go for big bucks in future years because there are simply too many of them. People who invest in cars for a return are the same crowd who bout condos in Vegas to flip over the last couple of years. Go out and modify and enjoy. If you want an investment in a car then go buy a Lamborghini Miura or Ferrari early year equivalent and pray. A car in my opinion is not an investment and with the exception of a few years for a ferrari and a few years for the musclecars the facts will support that.

[myold88]

A good example of hoarding/saving cars for an investment was the new 1976 Cadillac Eldorado convertable. It was thought to be the "last Convertable" and most were covered up and put away in garages. They sold for about $18,000.00 new. Within 10-15years many were all for sale with little or no gain. Today they are still all around and for sale. Foolish investment. Drive and enjoy your Camaro- Life's too short.

[blazzin1]

Seriously, I don't really think anyone can predict the future! You can speculate all you want, but those guys who bought all those high-end muscle cars back in the 60's and 70's probably never could even fathom the incredible prices their cars are bringing today. Nobody knows what's going to happen, all we can do is guess and give our opinion. But one little fact that always remains true when buying "old" cars....factory stock is always worth more than "bubba-fied" mods. Only time will tell the truth.....I'll take my chances and keep mine stock. We'll see what happens 20-30 years from now. To each his own....

[rickerda]

It’s not easy predicting the future, however, if you use the past to gauge the future you can assume a few things about the future market,

1) Supply and demand rule, if a car was popular when it was new there should be a demand for it as it ages. The 20 something’s that are beating the life out of these cars, when they reach 50-60 and when to relive their youth will be looking for mint Camaros.
2) In the 80s you could have picked up a Hemi or any other collectible car for next to nothing, how many of us 50+ have sold cars we had as kids and wished we still had it?
3) A well kept car will always bring more money, original numbers matching, well documented low mileage will get top dollar.
4) Your car is the second largest investment you will make, and sorry not all investments we make you rich. But hopefully you don’t lose all your money.

[Axe]

I worked at a customers house who had 3 (!) of those retro T-birds Ford put out in the 90s..I remember distinctly thinking - "Who cares?". He had one driver and two as "investments". What a maroon.

[sen10l]

retro T-birds! LOL! Some things should stay dead.

Great discussion by the way, I enjoyed it. I think if the next Camaro changes in style radically from the C5, the C5 will go up in value. There's no doubt about it. What will happen is the kids who are 6-12 years old will grow up, turn 40, have loads of money and then wish they could relive their childhood and buy Bumblebee. Lowest mileage wins.

It's supply and demand folks.

The C5 Camaro is unprecedented. Never before has a concept car played a starring role in a #1 blockbuster of a franchise that spans almost 3 decades and probably more. Never before has a production car been released of a concept that looks ultra-cool but is a little impractical (ie. visibility), that is virtually identical to the concept. Most production cars scale back the coolness to release something that is more ergonomical and practical, not so the Camaro. So people can buy a car that is virtually identical to Bumblebee.

Think of iconic movie cars like the Interceptor, KITT or the Bullitt Mustang. Nothing comes close to the C5 Camaro in its place in celluloid history. Every known famous car was based on an existing car. Never before has an brand been resurrected that was iconic in the first place AND looks identical to a concept car first introduced to the entire world on a #1 blockbuster movie. The C5 Camaro will forever live in our collective dreams because it is now in the permanent and persistent collection of popular international art.

As academic as the previous arguments for and against are, the C5 Camaro is unprecedented and its future is uncharted. My bet is it's going to be super valuable in the future.

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by Stewcam

People who invest in cars for a return are the same crowd who bout condos in Vegas to flip over the last couple of years. Go out and modify and enjoy.

Cars should not be an investment. Show me an investment counselor that is recommending buying a car for investment, and I'll show you a guy looking for a job.

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by Axe

I worked at a customers house who had 3 (!) of those retro T-birds Ford put out in the 90s..I remember distinctly thinking - "Who cares?". He had one driver and two as "investments". What a maroon.

[blazzin1]

Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS

Cars should not be an investment. Show me an investment counselor that is recommending buying a car for investment, and I'll show you a guy looking for a job.

Well, I sure wish I would have "invested" in a few '69 Z's about 15-20 years ago!!!! Or maybe a few LS6 Chevelles!!! Or maybe a few '63 Split-Window Corvettes!!! The list can go on and on.... The point is that there are many cars that are incredible investments. You can say all you want that they "should" not be investments....but many are. I full-on agree that you should drive and enjoy your car. But there's no doubt that the potential is there for our beloved Camaro to be a good investment in the future (certainly not right away, but down the road it's possible).

[sen10l]

Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS

Cars should not be an investment. Show me an investment counselor that is recommending buying a car for investment, and I'll show you a guy looking for a job.

Buying a C5 Camaro is an investment in time. Your time is going to increase in value every second you spend it in a Camaro.

[Angrybird 12]

i heard one of the commentators say on one of the auctions that there are now 3 times as many 69 Z/28 Camaros for sale than Chevrolet ever built...
in other words, let the buyer beware...

Even on Chop Cut Rebuild they were doing a 69 Yenko "tribute car" which means it is similiar to a Yenko only in looks... Even though it would outperform a origonal Yenko it's never going to be a real Yenko.

[squat]

Leno wrote a column about a year ago about buying cars. In it he sais that oddball cars would be valuable later on. Things like the first gen prius or the cadillac cts with a manual (because you can't get luxury cars with a manual these days).

He basically said buy something you love because the value of these cars down the road is a crapshoot. At least this way when yer car loses most of its value you're stil driving something you love.