Alternative fuels/Algae-oil

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Robert91RS

+1

Algae is one of the fastest growing organisms on earth. So it could potentialy be produces faster than corn based ethenol. And produced in large enough quantities it could be cheaper also.

It can...and IS! There is no doubts on that, Corn ethanol is down at the bottom of the "preferred" alternative fuels list because of its inefficiency (not to mention the food criticism)

Corn Ethanol energy yeild is like 1.1:1. So, we get 1.1 units of energy out for every 1 we put in to make it. Switchgrass approaches 7:1 (because it grows with sunlight and without fertilizer). Algae, iirc, is something like 20:1.

50% by weight of Algae is oil. If refined, it is said that for 1/10th the land area of New Mexico, we can replace 100% of the US's OIL usage. So...plastics, oil, tar, gasoline, desiel, etc.

This shows great promise.

Originally Posted by MontyCarlo

Best of luck to the algae folks. I'm just worried it'll be stuck in development for decades like fusion power has been. They tried it before - I think it was the 70s or 80s - and couldn't get it to produce fuel efficiently enough or in high enough volumnes.

I agree. The difference between fusion and this is that fusion is VERY difficult to achieve and maintain the reaction...with Algae, it's just a matter of finding the right species to yeild maximum oil production.

There are test-plants out there right now doing it. They are approx 4 years out, however, before mass-production can start efficiently and cost-effectively. :(

[Robert91RS]

Originally Posted by MontyCarlo

Best of luck to the algae folks. I'm just worried it'll be stuck in development for decades like fusion power has been. They tried it before - I think it was the 70s or 80s - and couldn't get it to produce fuel efficiently enough or in high enough volumnes.

These are very related. Gasoline wouldn't be as cheap as it is now had it not seen so many technological advances in drilling and in such large quantities world wide. Here in America we often lead the trends and technology so if we can build it someone in another country with no minimum wage will do it cheaper. Not being political I promise

Originally Posted by radz282003

I'm not disagreeing, by any means, and I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but this just make too much sense, lol.

It still has many hurdles to overcome and the first one will be funding.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

It can...and IS! There is no doubts on that, Corn ethanol is down at the bottom of the "preferred" alternative fuels list because of its inefficiency (not to mention the food criticism)

Corn Ethanol energy yeild is like 1.1:1. So, we get 1.1 units of energy out for every 1 we put in to make it. Switchgrass approaches 7:1 (because it grows with sunlight and without fertilizer). Algae, iirc, is something like 20:1.

50% by weight of Algae is oil. If refined, it is said that for 1/10th the land area of New Mexico, we can replace 100% of the US's OIL usage. So...plastics, oil, tar, gasoline, desiel, etc.

This shows great promise.

I agree. The difference between fusion and this is that fusion is VERY difficult to achieve and maintain the reaction...with Algae, it's just a matter of finding the right species to yeild maximum oil production.

There are test-plants out there right now doing it. They are approx 4 years out, however, before mass-production can start efficiently and cost-effectively. :(

Okay - I haven't seen all this before. I'm on the wagon now too

[nova]

I do remember reading an article a while back about a company in Nevada that has genetically engineered a algae that excretes heavy fuel oil as its metabolic waste product. They said the inserted genese could be tweaked to produce everything up to and including 93 Octane gasoline. Their biggest hurdle is scaling it up to industrial levels and separating the fuels from the algae soup.

If we manage to find a good primary energy source (like nuclear fusion) you can use the energy from that to reclaim CO2 from the air as liquid fuel using selective catalyst reduction. In theory we could all have a machine in the garage that sucks CO2 out of the air to refuel our cars with....

[BearDownSS]

well I for one hope that something like algae-based clean fuels are really a possibility. Clean, renewable fuel could hopefully lead to us keeping v8's in our camaros!

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I wonder when we're going to peak with internal combustion engines. Sometimes I think we're there, but then, with continuous improvements we get, I start to think we're going to be forced away from fossil fueled cars way before we reach a zenith.

We'll see after HCCI engines become common place. I don't know of any improvements to be made after that.Odds are, their fist application will be in Voltec cars since they have a very limited operating range at the moment.

Anyway, I love how GM seems to have invested a bit in everything. Hydrogen, cellulose ethanol, Voltec. But back to biofuels ... green crude looks very promising. Hopefully large scale production meets at least 75% of the hype.

[MikesZ]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I wonder when we're going to peak with internal combustion engines. Sometimes I think we're there, but then, with continuous improvements we get, I start to think we're going to be forced away from fossil fueled cars way before we reach a zenith.

Have you tried to make you own bio-diesel? Reportedly, its not that difficult to make yourself.

[The Black Stig]

Originally Posted by MikesZ

Have you tried to make you own bio-diesel? Reportedly, its not that difficult to make yourself.

For three grand you can buy a machine that will make it for you, all you have to do is pour it in.

[MikesZ]

Originally Posted by The Black Stig

For three grand you can buy a machine that will make it for you, all you have to do is pour it in.

Is storage an issue related to temperature?

Found this site for the kits:

http://www.homebiodieselkits.com

[The Black Stig]

Originally Posted by MikesZ

Is storage an issue related to temperature?

Found this site for the kits:

http://www.homebiodieselkits.com

I believe "Cold Storage Conditions" are only an issue when you use straight filtered used corn oil, this is why you need tank heaters if you want to use it that way. When you make biodisel you refine and add agents that keep it from thickening and that make it better as a fuel.

If i were need to run some type of company that need me to have a fleet of diesel vehicles Bio diesel would more help my bottom line so much... Not to mention you could then sell it.

[MikesZ]

Originally Posted by The Black Stig

I believe "Cold Storage Conditions" are only an issue when you use straight filtered used corn oil, this is why you need tank heaters if you want to use it that way. When you make biodisel you refine and add agents that keep it from thickening and that make it better as a fuel.

If i were need to run some type of company that need me to have a fleet of diesel vehicles Bio diesel would more help my bottom line so much... Not to mention you could then sell it.

Sorry, I should have been more specific...what about desert heat (115F during the summer)?

[The Black Stig]

Originally Posted by MikesZ

Sorry, I should have been more specific...what about desert heat (115F during the summer)?

The flash point(When it goes Boom) is a bit over 600 degress and at 600 you would need to have it be boilling and over an open flame and then throw water on it, makes oil steam/vapor which then comes into contact with open flame and the goes all pryo on yo ass. Think frozen turnkey into bolling oil.

[MikesZ]

Originally Posted by The Black Stig

The flash point(When it goes Boom) is a bit over 600 degress and at 600 you would need to have it be boilling and over an open flame and then throw water on it, makes oil steam/vapor which then comes into contact with open flame and the goes all pryo on yo ass. Think frozen turnkey into bolling oil.

Cool! The process is not that difficult, for those who are inclined. My greatest hope is that Algae (or some other type of fuel) can ultimately replace fossil fuel at the pumps. As for current biofuel, even E85, availability for purchase is very limited in most parts of the country, although there seem to be more options for fleet/bulk buyers.

[Number 3]

This is a cool thread.

Technical AND political at the same time.

Remember, cheap is what really drives this topic. Right now, oild from the Middle East, North Sea, Mexico, Alaska is CHEAP. I call it "Jed Clampet" oil. Stick a straw in the ground and up comes crude. Yes, it is not cheap to build drilling rigs especially out in the ocean, but once you've done that you get CHEAP oil. It only takes a little bit of refining to get kerosene (jef fuel), diesel and gasoline.

Next up are the tar sands oil like up in Canada. Huge deposits, but it requires more refining and is thus more expensive.

Third up is shale oil. Not currently commercially viable, but yet another level of refining required making it even more expensive.

Now one could surmise that if the ultimate goal were to be "self sufficient" I might be putting some money into companies that want to convert shale oil into fuel. We (the U.S.) have more shale oil to convert to oil than all the known reserves. Or so I read several years ago. But that would be asking the American people to PAY MORE. And they won't..............they'll scream bloody murder just like they do any time any additional gas taxes are proposed.

Ethanol can be had today, corn based as mentioned. It is even subsidized and GM has over 5 million vehicles on the road that can run on it. Also note that Toyota is complaining that if E85 is mandated it will cost them an additional 3 to 400 dollars per car. GM has already done this on a wide range of products. Look at Brasil. They have sugar based ethanol and they even run on E100. Sugar ethanol is far cleaner burning than corn based ethanol too. But when Brasil wanted to import sugar based ethanol...................we told them no. Probably due to the price of corn for our farmers going down as a result. Hence politics.

Compressed Natural Gas. T. Boone Pickens wants us all to run on CNG. It is plentiful, cheap and U.S. made. Problem is that you can't pressurize a CNG tank to 3,00o psi very well. It takes as long to use the home unit to fill your car as it does to recharge an EV. About 12 to 14 hours. And that home unit is about $3,000 from Honda if I remember correctly. GM has offered trucks that run on CNG and Taxis in Korea mandate CNG. So that is viable as well, but I just don't know how to fill up your car at a local 7-11/gas station in the 5 minutes it takes today.

And like ethanol, and EVs and Hydrogen (another story all together) it requires huge infrastructure changes.

Battery power - hybrids, EVs, REEVs (Volt), Fuel Cells all require batteries to store the energy. We are at the infancy of chemical energy storage. LiION is the current technology and there are a few more promising ones on the horizon. But in a tiny car that you can maybe use for limited ranges, you MIGHT get 100 miles. And again in a small car with light loads. That doesn't work for people that actually need a Full Size Truck or Van for business. Or those that need to haul a trailer or carry 6 kids or drive 1,200 mile to Florida on vacation. And these batteries are VERY expensive. And when they fail, where do they go? Today, recycling of LiION batteries is a losing proposition.

So end of the day, gasoline is the cheapest, easiest to move of ANY alternate source. So we are back to CHEAP again. There are only two ways then to supplant the current status quo............make one of the alternatives more reliable, cheaper and match the ease of energy storage as gasoline............or mandate the change to one of the more expensive alternatives.

In time, one of the alternatives may stand out, in time what is cheap oil may become more expensive. But I believe, without data, that OPEC will never let oil rise so high that the other alternatives do become cheaper. At least no for very long.

Keep in mind, gas and diesel are $8 to $10 per gallon in parts of the world. And they haven't jumped on board any of these alternatives either. Of course the socio-economic model in Europe that taxes the crap out of fuel will have to change once you can buy a car with a battery and charge it at home. The tax man commeth.

In an interview with the head of GM powertrain, he was very clear that IC engine will be here for a lonnngggggg time to come. The fuels may come from alternate sources than today, but the ability to transport and store that energy is still the cheapest and most efficient way to go. And the IC engine will run on many of the alternate fuels. Hydrogen (BMW), CNG (many examples), Ethanol (many of the GM, Ford and Chrysler products) in anywhere from E20 to E100.