Tuner will VOID warranty

[1fastdog]

Originally Posted by Mike@Diablosport

Again, since GM cant see our tunes in the PCM, this is a moot point, unless you are using another tuner to flash your car.

I don't doubt you know your product as well as anyone. Whether it's a matter of puffery or stated as an absolute fact is something you might consider running by the corporate attorneys. { Not trying to be argumentative }

I couldn't tell you if a reflash by your company's system is detectable or not.

My purpose for posting was to point out my personal opinion that there is some irony I see when reading the Diablo Sport warranty. It seems to read to me that if someone changes your product from how you built it, there is no warranty. It also seems to read that any issues with the manufacturer's warranty of the vehicle your product might be installed in is at the customer's risk.

None of that is a bad thing to have in writing. The buyer is forewarned and the limitations spelled out clearly. I read the warranty on the Diablo site and I didn't see any ambiguity. Then again, I'm not an attorney.

I don't see any here not wanting folks to enjoy their ownership experience.

[themossman]

Originally Posted by brtaus

I know but I am not talking about the entire thread.

Here, let's recap:



The part bolded is what you bolded and are talking about in the underlined part. So, correct me if I am wrong, but you are saying they need to supply a warranty to the end user, so if the end users warranty is voided by GM b/c of their tune, then they will cover the repair... is that right?

The bolded part, which is what they said, has nothing to do with a warranty, either by GM or them. He is simply saying that if you use their product as directed, their product will not cause an issue with your car. Meaning, if you don't know what in the hell you are doing and you change parameters you know nothing about, then there will be issues with the car and you will have to take the car to the dealer for repair. But how is that their fault? They told you how to use it and if you don't know how to use some of the features, don't mess with them and if you mess with them and don't know what you are doing, they are not responsible.

Your taking that section out of context from the whole thread...which is why I said you had to go back further...it was like walking in on the middle of a conversation.


My point through the whole thread is that the tuner is saying 'hey, don't worry about the warranty...they can't see our tune' and that is NOT good advice. Even when using their product properly the tuner IS NOT agreeing to assume the liability of a voided warranty. The thread 'topic' was centered around whether or not a warranty would be voided due to a flash of the PCM...and think it's severely inappropriate for someone to say 'don't worry about it' unless they themselves are willing to accept that risk for their consumer. Potential liability aside...it's just not ethical IMO.

So...I'm not arguing whether or not the tuners product would or would not cause damage. My concern is solely on the risk associated with voiding a warranty and the consumer ACCURATELY understanding that risk. IF they are lead to believe that the tune is 'undetectable'...they could be in for a really, really nasty surprise if they have a warranty claim.

Has is been proven one way or the other? ..not yet. But again...there's a risk. And unless your willing to accept that risk, it's inappropriate to tell others not to worry about it.

[Bell040]

where is that pic of the guy beating the dead horse ????

[SA CHEVY]

Originally Posted by Bell040

where is that pic of the guy beating the dead horse ????

Even he died on like page 7 and bailed out...

[jaymd17]

I asked my service guy what I could add to my car and I was told I could use a tuner as long as it can go back to the stock config. I'm new to all of this but from what I've read and been told that as long as your tuner can put your stock tune back the previous installed tunes are untraceable.

[HaveBlue]

It's been mentioned a couple of times here and it seems to get glossed over. Unless these tunes have an E.O. number they are a violation of the Federal Clean Air Act. They are illegal. If these tunes are so perfect why don't the manufacturers get EO's ? And don't tout Magnuson-Moss, MMA only applies to "like" replacement parts or certified "specialty parts", i.e. EO certification. It does not apply to ANY aftermarket part. (I've been in this industry for 30 years and was closely involved with the company and people who helped create the CARB-EO process).

So what I'm getting at is if your car is no longer a "street legal" vehicle, why would the warranty for a "stock-EPA legal" car apply? According to DialboSport and others disclaimers you now have an "off-road-racing use only vehicle.

Mike@DialboSport, show me you EO numbers. If your product is LEGAL put it in writing.

The EPA will come a knockin' sooner or later. They have done it before and will again. The internet actually makes it easier for them. Just spending an evening on forums would produce tons of leads for violations (starting at $10,000 & up). BTW, If your selling these services or parts, or making your own parts make sure you protect yourself with the proper disclaimers. You can contact SEMA for help with this. Also CARB can assert it's authority on any company selling there parts into CA, regardless of what state they are located in. They are going to business and asking for proof that those 200 parts you sold in CA, ARE actually being used on race cars, not street cars. Yes this is happening.

Is this the extreme scenario? Yep, but it is a Federal Law, regardless of local enforcement or inspections. As No3 said. It's about the consumer knowing the "FACTS" and making his own risk assessment.
I love cars, I love performance cars and have been very lucky to make my living in this industry. I have always and always will modify my cars. But I do so knowing and accepting the risks.
But what I don't like is people coming looking for information being misled. Lots of people make recommendations, but no one would be willing to back that recommendation if the recipient followed it and had an issue. Were will you be when the guy or gal has their car fail emissions testing or get their warranty voided because they were told that they should tear the exhaust off the car, put on Long Tubes and delete or relocate the cats and get a custom tune. Does that make great power? Yep. Is it legal? Nope. You cannot relocate the cats, period. Doesn't matter if there is no local inspection. Getting away with it, doesn't change the legality of it.
To sum it up, see my sig line.

[cplabaunza]

The disclaimer says for "off-road use"...ARB for the most part is a way for the state to generate revenue...if you install a part that reduces smog by 99% and does not have EO#, as good as it may be its illegal...

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

It's been mentioned a couple of times here and it seems to get glossed over. Unless these tunes have an E.O. number they are a violation of the Federal Clean Air Act. They are illegal. If these tunes are so perfect why don't the manufacturers get EO's ? And don't tout Magnuson-Moss, MMA only applies to "like" replacement parts or certified "specialty parts", i.e. EO certification. It does not apply to ANY aftermarket part. (I've been in this industry for 30 years and was closely involved with the company and people who helped create the CARB-EO process).

So what I'm getting at is if your car is no longer a "street legal" vehicle, why would the warranty for a "stock-EPA legal" car apply? According to DialboSport and others disclaimers you now have an "off-road-racing use only vehicle.

Mike@DialboSport, show me you EO numbers. If your product is LEGAL put it in writing.

The EPA will come a knockin' sooner or later. They have done it before and will again. The internet actually makes it easier for them. Just spending an evening on forums would produce tons of leads for violations (starting at $10,000 & up). BTW, If your selling these services or parts, or making your own parts make sure you protect yourself with the proper disclaimers. You can contact SEMA for help with this. Also CARB can assert it's authority on any company selling there parts into CA, regardless of what state they are located in. They are going to business and asking for proof that those 200 parts you sold in CA, ARE actually being used on race cars, not street cars. Yes this is happening.

Is this the extreme scenario? Yep, but it is a Federal Law, regardless of local enforcement or inspections. As No3 said. It's about the consumer knowing the "FACTS" and making his own risk assessment.
I love cars, I love performance cars and have been very lucky to make my living in this industry. I have always and always will modify my cars. But I do so knowing and accepting the risks.
But what I don't like is people coming looking for information being misled. Lots of people make recommendations, but no one would be willing to back that recommendation if the recipient followed it and had an issue. Were will you be when the guy or gal has their car fail emissions testing or get their warranty voided because they were told that they should tear the exhaust off the car, put on Long Tubes and delete or relocate the cats and get a custom tune. Does that make great power? Yep. Is it legal? Nope. You cannot relocate the cats, period. Doesn't matter if there is no local inspection. Getting away with it, doesn't change the legality of it.
To sum it up, see my sig line.

[Mike@DS]

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

It's been mentioned a couple of times here and it seems to get glossed over. Unless these tunes have an E.O. number they are a violation of the Federal Clean Air Act. They are illegal. If these tunes are so perfect why don't the manufacturers get EO's ? And don't tout Magnuson-Moss, MMA only applies to "like" replacement parts or certified "specialty parts", i.e. EO certification. It does not apply to ANY aftermarket part. (I've been in this industry for 30 years and was closely involved with the company and people who helped create the CARB-EO process).

So what I'm getting at is if your car is no longer a "street legal" vehicle, why would the warranty for a "stock-EPA legal" car apply? According to DialboSport and others disclaimers you now have an "off-road-racing use only vehicle.

Mike@DialboSport, show me you EO numbers. If your product is LEGAL put it in writing.

The EPA will come a knockin' sooner or later. They have done it before and will again. The internet actually makes it easier for them. Just spending an evening on forums would produce tons of leads for violations (starting at $10,000 & up). BTW, If your selling these services or parts, or making your own parts make sure you protect yourself with the proper disclaimers. You can contact SEMA for help with this. Also CARB can assert it's authority on any company selling there parts into CA, regardless of what state they are located in. They are going to business and asking for proof that those 200 parts you sold in CA, ARE actually being used on race cars, not street cars. Yes this is happening.

We have been very compliant with the epa. They know very well what we can do.

We used to allow customers to disable rear O2 codes, as well as disable EGR, and other emissions control devices through the handheld, but as pressure from the EPA came down to stop that, we respectfully agreed to do so. We refuse to offer DPF delete tunes for the diesel market, even if it is keeping us from being leaders in the late model diesel platforms, but we figure you're right, and the EPA is definitely going to start knocking on doors, but they're going to start with diesel first

EO numbers are not required to make a product legal, just for use in emissions controlled states, and EO testing is long and complicated, not to mention expensive. Those costs would have to be passed on to someone...

Originally Posted by cplabaunza

The disclaimer says for "off-road use"...ARB for the most part is a way for the state to generate revenue...if you install a part that reduces smog by 99% and does not have EO#, as good as it may be its illegal...

On the topic of EO#.....they are not as common as some may thing. There are certainly more speed parts without EO#'s that with...

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by Mike@Diablosport

EO numbers are not required to make a product legal, just for use in emissions controlled states,

Incorrect and a common misconception. Emissions laws (The Clean Air Act) are Federal. They apply in every state. What varies is the inspection/registration process. The EPA does mandate inspection based on population density and air quality. Example a state may only test in a Metro area, but not state wide in low density areas. The law still applies only enforcement varies. It's like speed limits. They are posted everywhere, but not every street is patrolled. Does that mean if you speed your not breaking the law in those areas? No, your just taking a calculated risk based on your knowledge of where patrols are common.
I'm sure you're a SEMA member. Download the SEMA Black Book and look it over...

On the topic of EO#.....they are not as common as some may thing. There are certainly more speed parts without EO#'s that with

Hypertech and Superchips and Edge have EO'#'s, they are not huge companies.

Here is a list;

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermk...es/amquery.php


.

There are really 4 separate questions here.

1. What's legal?

2. What can I get away with? (risk/reward assessment)

3. What will my dealership do? (as a customer service policy OUTSIDE of what GM's rules are)

4. How does this affect my GM warranty?

You really need the answers to all these questions to make an informed decision. THere is no Yes/No answer, with the exception if #1.

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by cplabaunza

The disclaimer says for "off-road use"...ARB for the most part is a way for the state to generate revenue...if you install a part that reduces smog by 99% and does not have EO#, as good as it may be its illegal...

Correct, except many disclaimers, especially for CA, now read "Sanctioned racing use only". Loopholes are being closed.

And yes the stupid part is you can lower emissions and still be illegal. But they don't have to make sense, it's a government bureaucracy. I know of one EO'd engine swap kit that had a non-functioning EGR valve on it, in order to pass the visual inspection. (this was quite a few years ago). This kit was sold by a OEM!

[Mike@DS]

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

Hypertech and Superchips and Edge have EO'#'s, they are not huge companies.

Here is a list;

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermk...es/amquery.php

SC and Edge are owned by MSD, thats big time, corporate money....

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by Mike@Diablosport

SC and Edge are owned by MSD, thats big time, corporate money....

Incorrect. MSD, Edge & SCP WERE owned by ValueAct, an investment company, uinder the umbrella of MSD Performance Group. MSD Igniton never had the money to buy those companies, it was venture capital.
As of last fall that is no longer the case. ValueAct sold them at a huge loss (after the market crash) and they are 3 seperate companies again, partially owned by management of each company.

Come On Mike, ya got to get caught up on industry stuff

[Mike@DS]

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

Incorrect. MSD, Edge & SCP WERE owned by ValueAct, an investment company, uinder the umbrella of MSD Performance Group. MSD Igniton never had the money to buy those companies, it was venture capital.
As of last fall that is no longer the case. ValueAct sold them at a huge loss (after the market crash) and they are 3 seperate companies again, partially owned by management of each company.

Come On Mike, ya got to get caught up on industry stuff

My bad for assuming their website was correct...seems odd to claim to be owned by someone, that does not actually own you??

https://www.superchips.com/#pn=compg&pid=28&psid=612

[jrc1122]

Originally Posted by Mike@Diablosport

My bad for assuming their website was correct...seems odd to claim to be owned by someone, that does not actually own you??

https://www.superchips.com/#pn=compg&pid=28&psid=612

winner !!