Camaro VS Mustang Mega Thread

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

Then you dont know much about those cars and you certainly dont know much about the ZL1 engine. If you had said Cuda maybe, but not likely. The ZL1 was a (in the time) supercar. Those Road Runners you speak of were just high end muscle cars. I am sure Dodge might have built a real special car back then that would compete but the normal Hemi for sure would not get the job done. The ZL1 motor back then cost more than the new standard 3 bedroom house and that was just the motor.

By the way ZL1 replicas built to the exact standard and specs have run mid 11's bone stock.(No one would race a true ZL1 its too valuable)

Bull shit. Show me proof of a bone stock zl1 running mid 11's. Not a chance. And people didn't dare race them? ARE YOU KIDDING? LOL! The car was built for NHRA super stock and plenty of people raced them. 100% stock, I would believe a mid 12 at best, maybe a low 12 with modern tires. They are legendary for making mad power with minor modifications.

[99SSragtop]

^
I think what he means if you had a ZL1 today you wouldn't want to race it, to valuable. Back in the day yes they raced the crap out of them.

[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

Bull shit. Show me proof of a bone stock zl1 running mid 11's. Not a chance. And people didn't dare race them? ARE YOU KIDDING? LOL! The car was built for NHRA super stock and plenty of people raced them. 100% stock, I would believe a mid 12 at best, maybe a low 12 with modern tires. They are legendary for making mad power with minor modifications.

Look it up dude. Dick Harrel ran consistent mid 11's at over 122mph with just the addition of long tube headers and slicks. When I am talking about people not racing the original ones Im not talking about the factory race ready ZL1 cars but the full interior with all options super rare ones built for the street. Most of those 69 Zl1 that were built were built with the sole purpose of racing and were equipped as such. There were a limited few that probably never saw a race track and they were optioned and built as street cars. The cars im talking about would probably sell for half a million dollars today and thats why they were not dared to be raced or even driven that much.

[BigDan]

^ Yes dont they have a pure stock class at the Super Chevy Shows usually dominated by 427 cid's, Camaro's, Vette's, Caprice's and most are well into the 11's?

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

Look it up dude. Dick Harrel ran consistent mid 11's at over 122mph with just the addition of long tube headers and slicks. When I am talking about people not racing the original ones Im not talking about the factory race ready ZL1 cars but the full interior with all options super rare ones built for the street. Most of those 69 Zl1 that were built were built with the sole purpose of racing and were equipped as such. There were a limited few that probably never saw a race track and they were optioned and built as street cars. The cars im talking about would probably sell for half a million dollars today and thats why they were not dared to be raced or even driven that much.

Yes, Dick Harrell, the original creator of the car, ran mid 11's with EL longtubes, "professional tuning" by his crew (which one can assume is a bump in timing at the very least), slicks and suspension mods. Hardly stock. If that's stock, then stock 2011 mustangs and camaros are running mid 11's as well and we both know that's not the case. Stock they were a mid 12 car at best. Like I said, they respond incredibly well to mods because they were very restricted from the factory. There are quite a few other engines that also respond very well to the same types of modifications. The zl1 is without a doubt one of the most bad ass american cars of all time, but your previous statement that nothing could keep up is just wrong. It was not a mid 11 second car from the factory and there were a few cars that were faster as well as a few that would keep right with it stock for stock. You hear the same misinformation about the hemi cudas and such because they are so legendary and people lose track of the facts. People think they are making 500+hp in stock form, but they're not.

[omegaman]

I've seen forum members here use the "SAE certified HP rating" as an argument against HP claims by Ford and others. What does it mean and why is it important.

[WYD OPN]

SAE = Same As Everyone's. ;-)

[ViperTomcat]

FYI the ZL1( AKA COPO 9560) cost $7,269. The average house price was $15,500. The ZL1's were expensive and overpriced considering the car they were, but no where near the cost of a house.

ZL1=great, but not the mythical super legend that people make it out to be, Hemi's were just as fast.

[Crowley]

LOL .. no contest the stang would eat the SS for breakfast .. in the twisties and in the straights ..

Crowley

[JBsC6]

31 grand for a camaro SS 1SS...
Boss 302 Base price 36 grand...

5 grand difference before one option.

5.0 Ford Mustang equal in performance to the Camaro SS 1ss..
Boss 302 slightly faster than Camaro SS 1ss (boss 302 beats M3 which is cool)

Z28 faster than the Boss 302 (and Ford shelby 500)

JMO both great cars.

[Vega]

With the whole ZL1 vs Hemi/Mopar debate, i honestly believe the ZL1 was demolishing them. I love watching this series of videos online that sanctions heads up drag racing between stock muscle cars (restored or survivors) and ive seen a trend of Pontiac motors dominating, almost every time a Pontiac 400 will beat a 440 or Hemi and actually the 440s usually run a little faster than Hemis strangely enough the 455s dont run much faster than the 400s, but my point is if the Pontiac 400 is whipping 440s and 426s then the ZL1 427 would demolish them plain and simple. The Ponchos were running on street gas and the ZL1s required Sunoco, that alone says it all. And honestly nobody can say anything about SAE ratings because there's never been any true tests done to find out how much power those cars put out, i can gaurentee you it would be pretty rediculous, they were purpose built race motors.

But thats way off subject. This new Boss 302 looks bad as hell, and honestly if GM doesnt have a rival too it i might consider one myself. The Boss is pretty much exactly what i look for in a muscle car, its raw N/A performance in a stripped down package to keep prices low. A kind of "screw the Tom Tom i want horsepower" kinda thing which i think ALL modern muscle cars should be, i cant begin to tell you how pissed off i get when i hear people piss and moan about how the Camaro doesnt have on screen nav. SCREW ON SCREEN NAV! ITS A MUSCLE CAR! LEARN YOUR ROAD SIGNS! >={
Also there was a guy at the beginning of the thread that said "throw a little high spooling turbo on it" i think he totally lost base with what this Boss is supposed to be, it seems to me that one of its main focuses is the fact that its still an N/A car, its Ford saying "this is how far we can go before adding cop-out forced induction power grabber tactics" which in all honesty is what makes it the best balance of performance and streetability in my oppinion

I just kinda wish GM hadnt jumped the gun on the Z/28 now haha, id more preffer to see the Z/28 compete with Ford's Boss 302s like they used too than see the Z dukin it out with the GT500. Im really hoping GM will announce a competitior to the Boss, i want a high performance, low luxury, no nonsense N/A Camaro thats basically tuned to say "FTW!" Which is almost word for word what the Boss is haha. Come on, SIDE PIPES!...SIDE...PIPES! Did we ever think we'd see THAT again on a production car with the government's rediculous strangle-hold on our automotive industry? Haha, its an amazing time indeed...Now we have a dilemma though, if the Z/28 goes for the Shelby and the SS is aimed at the GT what trim could possibly be used to compete with the Boss 302?

Maybe a new 1LE option on SS models like they had in the 3rd gens?...hey actually now that i typed it and am thinking about it that sounds pretty perfect haha.

[assasinator]

Originally Posted by Vega

With the whole ZL1 vs Hemi/Mopar debate, i honestly believe the ZL1 was demolishing them. I love watching this series of videos online that sanctions heads up drag racing between stock muscle cars (restored or survivors) and ive seen a trend of Pontiac motors dominating, almost every time a Pontiac 400 will beat a 440 or Hemi and actually the 440s usually run a little faster than Hemis strangely enough the 455s dont run much faster than the 400s, but my point is if the Pontiac 400 is whipping 440s and 426s then the ZL1 427 would demolish them plain and simple. The Ponchos were running on street gas and the ZL1s required Sunoco, that alone says it all. And honestly nobody can say anything about SAE ratings because there's never been any true tests done to find out how much power those cars put out, i can gaurentee you it would be pretty rediculous, they were purpose built race motors.

no the ZL1 in stock street SAE net trim did NOT make 500 hp. not even close.


http://www.e-rods.com/Engines/big_block_history.htm


Like the L88, the ZL1 required 103 octane RON (minimum) fuel, which made both engines largely unsuitable for street use in an era where 102 octane RON (Sunoco 260) represented the highest octane gasoline sold at common retail stations. Impressive as the ZL1 was in its day and despite the "larger than life legends" surrounding it, actual engine dyno tests of a certified production line stock ZL1 revealed 376 SAE net HP, with output swelling to 524 Gross HP with the help of optimal carb. and ignition tuning, open long tube racing headers and with no power sapping engine accessories or air cleaner in place. ZL1 DYNO TEST - COPO CAMARO WEBSITE




http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55107

LikFactory dyno tests of the time showed that the ZL-1 engine produced 575 hp and 515 lb-ft of torque with open headers.

take a BOSS429, Pontiac 421, Buick stage1 455, and 427 cammer, and dyno it in SAE gross configuration like the ZL1 dyno sessions you mention and you might be suprised.e

the L88, the ZL1 required 103 octane RON (minimum) fuel, which mahttp://www.e-rods.com/Engide both engines largely unsuitable for street use in an era where 102 octane RON (Sunoco 260) represented the highest octane gasoline sold at common retail stations. Impressive as the ZL1 was in its day and despite the "larger than life legends" surrounding it, actual engine dyno tests of a certified production line stock ZL1 revealed 376 SAE net HP, with output swelling to 524 Gross HP with the help of optimal carb. and ignition tuning, open long tube racing headers and with no power sapping engine accessories or air cleaner in place. ZL1 DYNO TEST - COPO CAMARO WEBSITE
Like the L88, the ZL1 required 103 octane RON (minimum) fuel, which made both engines largely unsuitable for street use in an era where 102 octane RON (Sunoco 260) represented the highest octane gasoline sold at common retail stations. Impressive as the ZL1 was in its day and despite the "larger than life legends" surrounding it, actual engine dyno tests of a certified production line stock ZL1 revealed 376 SAE net HP, with output swelling to 524 Gross HP with the help of optimal carb. and ignition tuning, open long tube racing headers and with no power sapping engine accessories or air cleaner in place. ZL1 DYNO TEST - COPO CAMARO WEBSITE

[assasinator]

Originally Posted by JBsC6

31 grand for a camaro SS 1SS...
Boss 302 Base price 36 grand...

5 grand difference before one option.

5.0 Ford Mustang equal in performance to the Camaro SS 1ss..
Boss 302 slightly faster than Camaro SS 1ss (boss 302 beats M3 which is cool)

Z28 faster than the Boss 302 (and Ford shelby 500)

JMO both great cars.

is that before or after the "red key"? cuz after the red key im sure the BOSS is even faster.

[carguy_z28]

the stock 5.0 beats the Camaro SS, not by much, but it still does. The Boss will rape the SS and the 5.0 GT as it has less weight, and more power, but I be non of us will see many boss cars around, so im not to worried...