IAT Whipple vs E-Force

[Total_Perf_Eng]

It is physically, impossible to hold ambient at boost. there isnt a compressor on the planet that can do that.

It is physics 101 "Boyles Gas Law".

Increase in boost. causes an increase in temps. Yes, an intercooler cools it. But unless you are running an ice box, then its not gonna happen.

Yes, there are many many many races that actually run 30-50* BELOW ambient. How do they do this? When they make the pass, they are running off of ICE WATER. Ive seen top mount 1800hp blown mustangs run 45* IAT's.. But they are also running about 5 gallons of dry ice and water. After the run, they drain it, and do it all over again. But on a closed system, utilizing a typical supercharger cooling system, the temps will stabilize, and run as hot as the blower is efficient enough to let it run.

Now I know Whipple is gonna jump back, and make claims that I am only saying this due to KB. Im not.. I am not saying the Whipple is hotter by any means. I am not referring to anything regarding what they "Cant" do. I am discussing IAT's in general.
I have never seen where it is installed.

Personally, I think if the IAT was placed in/around the lower manifold, like the other systems, it will run just about the same temps as any of the other very good systems on the market. I dont think it is worse than any of them at all. I have heard they run a larger intercooler under the blower. If that is the case, then it may very well have better temps, by a couple of degrees. But then you have to factor in the efficiency of the head unit.

Point being, is they will all be within a few degrees of each other. Nowhere near enough to determine one is better than the other due to IAT's.

Originally Posted by realsquash

I challenge you to show a dyno where IAT2 was ambient+10* at 12psi. I also challenge you to show what IAT2 is after the car is hot from driving around.

Andy

[stanwilliams]

What is required to add the second IAT sensor like the Vette engine has?? What sensor will be used to control the timing adder when you have both sensors?? I see where you calibrate the 2nd sensor. What tables does this effect if you have it in there???

[Total_Perf_Eng]

You can only use 1 sensor for the vehicle. If you want 2 sensors, for what im not exactly sure, you would run one through the vehicles pcm, and the other to an external gauge.

If your asking about 2 sensors because your assuming the vette runs 2 of them, the answer would be, we actually ditch the first sensor out of the plug itself. All we do, is use the wires that originally controlled the sensor at the MAF, and relocate them about 18" back in the loom.

It is extremely simple to convert over to the new sensor. All you do, is cut the 2 wires at the MAF plug,that go to the IAT sensor, and pull them out of the wire loom. The plug used for the GM temp sensor, is a common plug, so you can buy it at most auto parts stores. All you do, is take those 2 wires, and pin them into the new plug. Its that simple. Its about a 10 minute job.

The hard part would be finding a place on the lower manifold to tap for the new sensor.

[03ss]

Originally Posted by 03ss

Any update ? Please post pics of where you install the sensor along with before and after logs of moving the iat sensor pickup. I assume you will do back to back logs right? I don't suppose you will be running the 12 psi to prove the no more than 10 deg F from ambient claim? Awaiting results!!

Still interested in Seeing the Results of relocating the IAT on the Whipple. Wondering if it can hold up to their claims.

[Bad Dad]

Originally Posted by Whipple Charged

There is a very drastic difference in temps from different SC's, as our holds almost near ambient except at idle, when vehicle is not moving which doesn't matter. Many systems, including all our Ford Racing systems are modeled around the IAT being pre SC. Pre SC is just as important, as its doing the real adjustment for ambient changes.

In order to get accurate reading, you must have a grommet style IAT sensor in the proper air stream, standard screw in temp sensors are not as accurate (pickup all the heat from the engine and under hood) and most have different transfer functions. When your in this area with our twin screw, the temps very rarely change and gives almost zero tuning ability since there's almost no swing in temps. Thus, its not required to monitor post SC. The proper system, such as most factory system has an IAT 1 and IAT 2.

Most roots systems go 30-60deg F over ambient under boost, most twin screws are at least half this. Ours, with the oversized IC and SC design stays with 10degs of ambient up to 12psi when measured in the air stream.

Tunes will be the same, no need to "re-tune". Especially if our IAT table is used as the baseline.

Can't compare a GT500 app to the Camaro app. Most GT500's run very high boost with very tight bend deep manifolds which adds heat.

MY WHIPPLE JUST LANDED IN THE GARAGE

[GMRULZ]

Originally Posted by Bad Dad

MY WHIPPLE JUST LANDED IN THE GARAGE

Congrats!

[DarricSS]

Whipple doesn't need any paid internet blow hards to promote their product...props to Whipple, your products speak for themselves!

[2L82RUN]

My Whipple install should be completed this week and hoping to pick her up Saturday. A link to Cincy Speed facebook page showing some install pics...can't wait to try it out!!! http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...d=147282994113

I'm not an expert on SC's as this is my first one, but I did do a lot of research and decided that the Whipple screw type was the way to go for me. Found a bunch of helpful info in this forum as well.

[Bad Dad]

Originally Posted by GMRULZ

Congrats!

ITS KILLIN ME CANT WAIT TO GET STARTED ANY SPECIAL TOOLS SUCH AS THE BALL HEX/ALLEN WRENCHESHAVENT GOT TO LOOK IN THE BOX YET JUST PEEKED IN TO SEE IF ANYTHING WAS BROKE. ITS PACKED TIGHT.

[GMRULZ]

Originally Posted by Bad Dad

ITS KILLIN ME CANT WAIT TO GET STARTED ANY SPECIAL TOOLS SUCH AS THE BALL HEX/ALLEN WRENCHESHAVENT GOT TO LOOK IN THE BOX YET JUST PEEKED IN TO SEE IF ANYTHING WAS BROKE. ITS PACKED TIGHT.

Definetly the ball allen wrenches, if you have the automatic I recomend the flywheel holding tool, a second set of hands is really a good thing to have. So you won`t tear the seal between the lower manifold and the blower when placing it on top the lower manifold.

[Total_Perf_Eng]

Suggestion..

Take a look at a few of the other LS tech sites. There are 2 or 3 that have a huge technical section. One LS1Tech style website comes to mind that has more technical information that many people could even process.

Wander over there, and look up IAT information. Read up on how important this field is, in tuning. On the E38, E67, E36, and E40 PCM's, there is only 1 IAT field. (The Gen 5 Camaro is an E38) See how important these temps are in relation to tuning certain parameters in their proper location.

ATI Procharger, Paxton, Vortech, Kenne Bell, Magnacharger, Rotex, PSI, Eaton, Turbonetics, TTi, and Granatelli, ALL read the IAT's, post Poweradder (turbo or supercharger). This is not some "Blowhard" touting any specific blower, or discrediting any specific blower. This is mearly FACT.

No one is saying any one company is "Bad". But being as this is a "Discussion Forum", there is nothing wrong with having a discussion regarding IAT's on different blowers. Trust me, ive been dealing with KB for many years. We have been questioned 1000's of times regarding IAT's. Some have been off the charts. So im in no way saying KB is better. I personally have battled 200* IAT's in the past on previous edition KB's, before we figured out what worked. So I will NEVER say the KB has great IAT's. Cause they dont. NO top mount supercharger does. They all are too high if you ask me..

As a tuner, we have tested virtually every road going supercharger. To include the new Edelbrock, and Whipple. Both, which I might add are very nice systems. Almost every supercharger, has IAT's within 10* of ambiant on the vacuum side of the blower, at the air filter/MAF (provided it is capable of accessing fresh air). Why?? Cause its ambiant.. Its nothing more than the temps you are reading from the fresh air that the car is getting. Now, lets talk about the new Procharger. Are you gonna see 10* above ambient on that one? Of course not, because the air is being pulled from above the exhaust manifold. But fortunately, they have an extremely efficient air to air intercooler that is able to pull that heat out, and get the IAT's within a very acceptable range.

Example: Say your electric intercooler pump fails. You now, no longer have ANY intercooling. Your IAT's jump to 250*. Yet your car is running around thinking you've got 85* IAT's, so its commanding 100% timing; when in reality it should be pulling 7-15*. Of course youve got an IAT vs fuel modifier that starts dumping fuel into the motor, desperately trying to cool itself off, and slow the flame speed down; but its STILL commanding full timing. As I said, you have ZERO control. If you had that EXACT scenario, with the "Post Blower" IAT's, the PCM would see the spike, and it would start to pull timing. If it didnt come down, the spark would be so low, and the fuel so rich, that your motor would be completely safe. It would only make 50% of its power, but it would be COMPLETELY safe.

Boost generates heat. Its not a myth. It is a fact. A fact that every supercharger company on the planet has had to battle.

Again, nothing is being said bad, mean, vindictive, or bias, about anyone. This is mearly a discussion regarding IAT's

FWIW, GM reads the IAT's post blower on the ZR1, and the CTS-V. They will also read post blower on the supercharged Z28.


P.S. Unpaid blowhards, are still blowhards.. At least the "Paid" blowhard is a money wh**e. Whereas the "Unpaid" blowhard, is just a loud mouth S!*t.. Just kidding around.

Originally Posted by DarricSS

Whipple doesn't need any paid internet blow hards to promote their product...props to Whipple, your products speak for themselves!

[Total_Perf_Eng]

We like to use that spray silicone that evaporates. It works REALLY well for that type of stuff.

Originally Posted by GMRULZ

So you won`t tear the seal between the lower manifold and the blower when placing it on top the lower manifold.

[GMRULZ]

Originally Posted by Total_Perf_Eng

We like to use that spray silicone that evaporates. It works REALLY well for that type of stuff.

It sure does, using that and an extra pair of hands is the deal imho..

[GMRULZ]

Originally Posted by Total_Perf_Eng

Suggestion..

Take a look at a few of the other LS tech sites. There are 2 or 3 that have a huge technical section. One LS1Tech style website comes to mind that has more technical information that many people could even process.

Wander over there, and look up IAT information. Read up on how important this field is, in tuning. On the E38, E67, E36, and E40 PCM's, there is only 1 IAT field. (The Gen 5 Camaro is an E38) See how important these temps are in relation to tuning certain parameters in their proper location.

ATI Procharger, Paxton, Vortech, Kenne Bell, Magnacharger, Rotex, PSI, Eaton, Turbonetics, TTi, and Granatelli, ALL read the IAT's, post Poweradder (turbo or supercharger). This is not some "Blowhard" touting any specific blower, or discrediting any specific blower. This is mearly FACT.

No one is saying any one company is "Bad". But being as this is a "Discussion Forum", there is nothing wrong with having a discussion regarding IAT's on different blowers. Trust me, ive been dealing with KB for many years. We have been questioned 1000's of times regarding IAT's. Some have been off the charts. So im in no way saying KB is better. I personally have battled 200* IAT's in the past on previous edition KB's, before we figured out what worked. So I will NEVER say the KB has great IAT's. Cause they dont. NO top mount supercharger does. They all are too high if you ask me..

As a tuner, we have tested virtually every road going supercharger. To include the new Edelbrock, and Whipple. Both, which I might add are very nice systems. Almost every supercharger, has IAT's within 10* of ambiant on the vacuum side of the blower, at the air filter/MAF (provided it is capable of accessing fresh air). Why?? Cause its ambiant.. Its nothing more than the temps you are reading from the fresh air that the car is getting. Now, lets talk about the new Procharger. Are you gonna see 10* above ambient on that one? Of course not, because the air is being pulled from above the exhaust manifold. But fortunately, they have an extremely efficient air to air intercooler that is able to pull that heat out, and get the IAT's within a very acceptable range.

Example: Say your electric intercooler pump fails. You now, no longer have ANY intercooling. Your IAT's jump to 250*. Yet your car is running around thinking you've got 85* IAT's, so its commanding 100% timing; when in reality it should be pulling 7-15*. Of course youve got an IAT vs fuel modifier that starts dumping fuel into the motor, desperately trying to cool itself off, and slow the flame speed down; but its STILL commanding full timing. As I said, you have ZERO control. If you had that EXACT scenario, with the "Post Blower" IAT's, the PCM would see the spike, and it would start to pull timing. If it didnt come down, the spark would be so low, and the fuel so rich, that your motor would be completely safe. It would only make 50% of its power, but it would be COMPLETELY safe.

Boost generates heat. Its not a myth. It is a fact. A fact that every supercharger company on the planet has had to battle.

Again, nothing is being said bad, mean, vindictive, or bias, about anyone. This is mearly a discussion regarding IAT's

FWIW, GM reads the IAT's post blower on the ZR1, and the CTS-V. They will also read post blower on the supercharged Z28.


P.S. Unpaid blowhards, are still blowhards.. At least the "Paid" blowhard is a money wh**e. Whereas the "Unpaid" blowhard, is just a loud mouth S!*t.. Just kidding around.

From Jeff at Whipple newer units will incorporate this and they hope to have a retrofit for us older guys..