Volt and Leaf not selling well, Volt sells just 281 cars in Feb.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

What I can assure you is the Volt meets all of the same powertrain requirements met by every other GM vehicle.

Yes and that is why the Lithium Ion Battery has a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty. Not that most people who the first owner of vehicle are going to own a Volt for 8 years or up to a 100,000 miles, but what about when these cars hit the used car market? Batteries all need to be replaced in time, even lithium ion. Like I said this is an issue already popping up with used Prius's. The last Prius I saw here in Phoenix that needed a replacement battery the ad stated that Toyota would supply one for $4,000 dollars. Now couple that with maintaining the gas engine you got yourself self a long list of stuff to maintain. Most cars gas engine cars are on the road 15 to 20 years, the hybrids will more than likely miss this mark by a large margin.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N

i think even though the volt is hideous, it is a great idea and a great car for most people and would work for me. But whats gonna happen if this thing (and other hybrids) sell like crazy and years from now we have all these toxic batteries to get rid of? put em in the dirt? or are they 100% recyclable?

Eye of the beholder.....I mean, I think it's awesome-looking; not my first choice, but way up there...

Anyways -- there are plans already in motion to make use of used batteries as local power-storage facilities to support these cars in the future by supplementing the grid.

In addition, there was an article recently about General Motors developing a battery-"refresh" procedure where they restore the Li-Ion battery to nearly full-capacity.

And Lithium Ion batteries are highly-recyclable. I want to say I read they could recycle 90% of the materials in it...but the exact number is fuzzy in my head. I know it was high, though.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Eye of the beholder.....I mean, I think it's awesome-looking; not my first choice, but way up there...

Anyways -- there are plans already in motion to make use of used batteries as local power-storage facilities to support these cars in the future by supplementing the grid.

In addition, there was an article recently about General Motors developing a battery-"refresh" procedure where they restore the Li-Ion battery to nearly full-capacity.

And Lithium Ion batteries are highly-recyclable. I want to say I read they could recycle 90% of the materials in it...but the exact number is fuzzy in my head. I know it was high, though.

Nice to know that recycling plans are already in place as this seemed to be an after thought with the lead-acid batteries.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Fearer2010SS

Nice to know that recycling plans are already in place as this seemed to be an after thought with the lead-acid batteries.

Definitely. NiMH batteries aren't nearly as easily recyclable as the Li-Ion the Volt uses...there's not a ton you can do with them after the fact.

http://media.gm.com/content/media/us...Sept/0921_volt


The beauty of the 'revitalizing' process is that the battery probably won't need to be removed from the car. Ideally, that should cause maintenance costs down the road to drop dramatically! (I can't find the article I read about it at the moment....)

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Eye of the beholder.....I mean, I think it's awesome-looking; not my first choice, but way up there...

Anyways -- there are plans already in motion to make use of used batteries as local power-storage facilities to support these cars in the future by supplementing the grid.

In addition, there was an article recently about General Motors developing a battery-"refresh" procedure where they restore the Li-Ion battery to nearly full-capacity.

And Lithium Ion batteries are highly-recyclable. I want to say I read they could recycle 90% of the materials in it...but the exact number is fuzzy in my head. I know it was high, though.

The problem with recycling Li+ batteries is the cost effectiveness and energy requirements. It is nowhere near cost effective and will present a major problem in the future if we really make a massive switch to EVs. Not only that, but you still need to renew the supply of multiple materials after the recycling process.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

The problem with recycling Li+ batteries is the cost effectiveness and energy requirements. It is nowhere near cost effective and will present a major problem in the future if we really make a massive switch to EVs. Not only that, but you still need to renew the supply of multiple materials after the recycling process.

True...but it can be recycled. Plus, thanks to consumer electronics -- the infrastructure is already developed and in-place.

I don't anticipate Li-Ion batteries will survive more than 10-12 years from now. There are already more promising technologies on the horizon...but for the moment...it's just good to know (to me anyways), they can be recycled (either salvaged, or re-purposed) and won't require any infrastructure development to support it (like hydrogen......).

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Fearer2010SS

Yes and that is why the Lithium Ion Battery has a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty. Not that most people who the first owner of vehicle are going to own a Volt for 8 years or up to a 100,000 miles, but what about when these cars hit the used car market? Batteries all need to be replaced in time, even lithium ion. Like I said this is an issue already popping up with used Prius's. The last Prius I saw here in Phoenix that needed a replacement battery the ad stated that Toyota would supply one for $4,000 dollars. Now couple that with maintaining the gas engine you got yourself self a long list of stuff to maintain. Most cars gas engine cars are on the road 15 to 20 years, the hybrids will more than likely miss this mark by a large margin.

You are simply stating anecdotal information to make your case. The ICE in a Volt just simply won't be running for most customers. I jokingly say the Volt will be the best source for hardly used 1.4 L engines down the road. The engine and drivetrain in the Volt will meet your 15 to 20 year expectation. There is no reason it wouldn't. The battery is a different discussion. You are correct, LiION batteries aren't cheap. That's why EVs are, at least for today, expensive.

And you grossly overestimate the reliability of a 15 to 20 year old car. Yes, the average vehicle on the road is something like 17 years old (there are over 300 Million cars in the U.S.) but those aren't the pinacle of reliabilty you seem to imply.

What everyone is missing is simply this. EVs are coming. Not today, not tomorrow, but with oil prices and the OMG we will run out of oil tomorrow Al Gores of the world, we will be finding ways to use less of it. The Volt is a choice that many will make. They will gladly pay the premium to have the flexibility of an EV WITH and ICE for extended driving. And in time, like most technogies, the price will come down.

And who knows, maybe there will be some other type of energy storage medium invented over the next few decades. The problem is, that today and for the forseeable future, oil is king. It's frankly just to cheap to procure, transport, store and deliver. Everything else on the planet from Bio Fuel to Hydrogen is wayyyyyy more expensive. But there is still a market for people that don't want to use gas........at all.

And yet the NUMBER ONE reason of concern for any EV purchase is .....drum roll please............RANGE ANXIETY. And that is the Volts Moon Shot.

[TOMS1SS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are simply stating anecdotal information to make your case. The ICE in a Volt just simply won't be running for most customers. I jokingly say the Volt will be the best source for hardly used 1.4 L engines down the road. The engine and drivetrain in the Volt will meet your 15 to 20 year expectation. There is no reason it wouldn't. The battery is a different discussion. You are correct, LiION batteries aren't cheap. That's why EVs are, at least for today, expensive.

And you grossly overestimate the reliability of a 15 to 20 year old car. Yes, the average vehicle on the road is something like 17 years old (there are over 300 Million cars in the U.S.) but those aren't the pinacle of reliabilty you seem to imply.

What everyone is missing is simply this. EVs are coming. Not today, not tomorrow, but with oil prices and the OMG we will run out of oil tomorrow Al Gores of the world, we will be finding ways to use less of it. The Volt is a choice that many will make. They will gladly pay the premium to have the flexibility of an EV WITH and ICE for extended driving. And in time, like most technogies, the price will come down.

And who knows, maybe there will be some other type of energy storage medium invented over the next few decades. The problem is, that today and for the forseeable future, oil is king. It's frankly just to cheap to procure, transport, store and deliver. Everything else on the planet from Bio Fuel to Hydrogen is wayyyyyy more expensive. But there is still a market for people that don't want to use gas........at all.

And yet the NUMBER ONE reason of concern for any EV purchase is .....drum roll please............RANGE ANXIETY. And that is the Volts Moon Shot.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm looking forward to 20 years from now when my next Camaro type vehilce comes standard with a hybrid motor. Could you imagine the boost in acceleration with the instant tourque of a electric motor? Twenty years is just my ball park guess for the cost of all this new tech to come down, it could be less, it could be more? Either way, yes I 100% agree the drive for hybrid and EV cars is finally where it needs to be for them to be acceptable. Enough people are willing to pay more for new technology because its what they want, even if it may not be the most logical choice. Hell, I'm a single guy with a Camaro I drive maybe 3,000 miles a year. Not a lot of people would call that logical, but its what I want to spend my money on. With that in mind if someone wants a Volt, Leaf or what have you I can't fault that. What I can fault and will continue to do so is the folks on this site that tell me this vehicles are the more logical choice right now vs. some of the most efficient gas engined cars on the market.

[speedster]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are simply stating anecdotal information to make your case. The ICE in a Volt just simply won't be running for most customers. I jokingly say the Volt will be the best source for hardly used 1.4 L engines down the road. The engine and drivetrain in the Volt will meet your 15 to 20 year expectation. There is no reason it wouldn't. The battery is a different discussion. You are correct, LiION batteries aren't cheap. That's why EVs are, at least for today, expensive.

And you grossly overestimate the reliability of a 15 to 20 year old car. Yes, the average vehicle on the road is something like 17 years old (there are over 300 Million cars in the U.S.) but those aren't the pinacle of reliabilty you seem to imply.

What everyone is missing is simply this. EVs are coming. Not today, not tomorrow, but with oil prices and the OMG we will run out of oil tomorrow Al Gores of the world, we will be finding ways to use less of it. The Volt is a choice that many will make. They will gladly pay the premium to have the flexibility of an EV WITH and ICE for extended driving. And in time, like most technogies, the price will come down.

And who knows, maybe there will be some other type of energy storage medium invented over the next few decades. The problem is, that today and for the forseeable future, oil is king. It's frankly just to cheap to procure, transport, store and deliver. Everything else on the planet from Bio Fuel to Hydrogen is wayyyyyy more expensive. But there is still a market for people that don't want to use gas........at all.

And yet the NUMBER ONE reason of concern for any EV purchase is .....drum roll please............RANGE ANXIETY. And that is the Volts Moon Shot.

I think the Volt is a giant step in the right direction. EV's are not for everyone, but they need to be developed NOW with the technologies we PRESENTLY have available. There will come a time where the fossil fuel market is not in jeopardy but will be very volatile and manipulated in the world market much worse than it is now.

I can't divulge details, but in things we are working for military uses, power/energy is the #1 priority. PERIOD. There are some recent "storage" technologies that may make batteries/monopropellant sources 3-4x+ more efficient than what we have today. That is HUGE.

Moved to the consumer market and given time that can make things more affordable and generally cost effective.

Now from one car enthusiast from another - will the Volt every replace the SST ? No. Will it replace the 4 cylinder commuter vehicle? Probably sooner than later. If someone did not make the leap of faith in their technology we would not be walking around with items such as cell phones, iPods, etc. that run for days and weeks on a charge.

[AZCamaroFan]

Isn't Chevrolet bringing the Volt out slowly? I heard very few dealers are getting them. I havn't seen one locally, nor have i seen them in Chevy ads in the paper.
just got the new issue of motor trend where they got a slew of hate mail for making the Volt car of the year. Are people daffy? can they not see what's going on with oil? I don't want an electric car, but i'm not oblivious to reality

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

Isn't Chevrolet bringing the Volt out slowly? I heard very few dealers are getting them. I havn't seen one locally, nor have i seen them in Chevy ads in the paper.
just got the new issue of motor trend where they got a slew of hate mail for making the Volt car of the year. Are people daffy? can they not see what's going on with oil? I don't want an electric car, but i'm not oblivious to reality

Very slowly. Only in select launch markets until the end of next year, when it should be available nationwide.

I think what a lot of people don't realize is that the electrification of the automobile is already beginning. I'm not saying that tomorrow everyone will switch to EVs, but if you look at what the automakers are working on, it's definitely heading that direction.

Look at Buick for example, the 2012 LaCrosse will come standard with the eAssist mild hybrid system, boosting its fuel economy to 37 MPG highway. That's an almost 4000 pound car achieving 37 MPG. Plus, the system can assist the ICE with an extra 15 HP and 79 lb/ft of torque instantly at launch. Regal will get eAssist as well.

[The_Blur]

Dealers in my area report that they are getting tons of inquiries on the Volt. Chicago is not a starting market. Once the Volt goes national, I expect to see lots of sales.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I absolutely disagree...in the worst way possible.

The Volt was never expected to sell more than a few hundred a month in it's infancy. Give it time, and it'll sell. Not like a Malibu or Cruze...but it'll sell just fine. By all expectations its off to a great start.

I cannot believe you honestly believe this is true. With the amount of advertising and magazine exposure as well as the car of the year moniker, the car should have no less than a thousand pre-orders to meet up expectations. The Government is giving you money back to buy it. In a supply and demand capitalist economy, there is no demand for this which is the reason why it is not selling.

Originally Posted by Camaroman_99

I think sales will pick up as gas prices skyrocket...

$10 a gallon gas will be the deciding factor perhaps for getting people in America to start to make the switch at some point in time as they have started to in Europe with gas prices around that high already.

I have been interested in the Volt since it was announced, and was on the waiting list for one. However it is too expensive currently for me to see any savings from it at all, even with the $7,500 tax break. Which is another reason, perhaps the second reason it is not selling, is the price. The price needs to drop in half for it to take off. I don't agree with the Government giving the car away at a grand loss, however looking at these pre-orders, and current sales, it is not looking good. The Ford Fiesta at $12,000 MSRP is a better deal if you want low cost with great gas mileage. That's what I would get instead of the VOlt in the current market.

[BigDan]

So you have to finance the whole $42k and then you get a $7,500 check from the government when? Do you have to repay the $7,500 if the Volt gets repo'd due to losing your job?