GM mistakes

[Shadow-phoenix]

Originally Posted by djsnoflake

If they start at 14 bucks an hour, you are telling me people would want to work for 7?

I don't know how crap your economy is in America, but here in Canada, nobody would work for 7 bucks an hour.

I've been out of work for three months, and unemployment screwed me. so for the past three months i've been bringing no money home at all. (Hence why i moved in with family in virginia) honestly, I'd kill to have ANY job at the moment, seven bucks an hour? hell, I'd take five just to start getting back on my feet.

3 or 4 brands should do it

4 brands tops, Chevy (mainstream), GMC (Trucks), Cadillac (Luxury), and Pontiac (proto-type/concept testing).

[PQ]

Originally Posted by RT21

Both of you are giving examples of different classes of cars. Heirachy....Chevy, Pontiac, Buick, Caddy....they aren't competing...it's just a different class. So, if/when Chevy make the Firebird or Trans Am, it will just be a higher class of the Camaro. Ford and Dodge do the same thang...Dodge, Chrysler, Plymouth...etc...

Silverado and Sierra seem like the the same truck to me.

[DGthe3]

The difference between Silverado vs Sierra rebadging and say . . . Camaro vs Firebird is volume. In a bad year GM sold 465 000 Silverado's and 168 000 Sierras. There were almost as many Sierras sold as the entire Saturn brand. They can spread the cost of changing the interior out much easier. When volume shrinks, it gets harder and so diferentiation gets reduced and/or it gets more expensive to do each one. Thats what makes the G5/Cobalt pair pointless but Silverado/Sierra sucessful

[PQ]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The difference between Silverado vs Sierra rebadging and say . . . Camaro vs Firebird is volume. In a bad year GM sold 465 000 Silverado's and 168 000 Sierras. There were almost as many Sierras sold as the entire Saturn brand. They can spread the cost of changing the interior out much easier. When volume shrinks, it gets harder and so diferentiation gets reduced and/or it gets more expensive to do each one. Thats what makes the G5/Cobalt pair pointless but Silverado/Sierra sucessful

OK but couldn't they make less and sell more? I guess that could drive (no pun intended) customersto another maker. This is why I sell hair and not cars.

[RT21]

Originally Posted by irpq11

This is why I sell hair and not cars.

Too funny!!

[dbotsfordtat]

The thread is titled GM mistakes and it starts out bashing the workers for being overpaid. I think the biggest thing causing problems for GM is a sudden overcapacity due to a crappy economy, yearly increases in competition and a much improved product that doesn't need to be replaced as often. Please stop bashing the workers, they earn a living wage, have health care and can expect to retire someday. Everybody with a job in this country should be able to expect the same so long as people in Washington and Wallstreet make such obscene money. Wake up and stop helping cut your own throats, Please!

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by irpq11

OK but couldn't they make less and sell more? I guess that could drive (no pun intended) customers to another maker. This is why I sell hair and not cars.

Your statement is awkward and confusing but I understand completely. And the answer is yes. There is a right way and a wrong way to badge engineer/platform share. Aveo/G3(Wave) is the wrong way to do it. Enclave and Traverse is the right way. Anyway, if you read through their viability plan they are ditching brands and removing models from the line up. The Grand Prix and the Bonneville have been replaced by the G8. The Monte Carlo simply went away and was never replaced with anything (unless you consider the Camaro a replacement). In a few years Saturn, Hummer, and Saab will be gone from GM one way or another.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Your statement is awkward and confusing but I understand completely. And the answer is yes. There is a right way and a wrong way to badge engineer/platform share. Aveo/G3(Wave) is the wrong way to do it. Enclave and Traverse is the right way. Anyway, if you read through their viability plan they are ditching brands and removing models from the line up. The Grand Prix and the Bonneville have been replaced by the G8. The Monte Carlo simply went away and was never replaced with anything (unless you consider the Camaro a replacement). In a few years Saturn, Hummer, and Saab will be gone from GM one way or another.

Cool. Wasn't sure how to put it. When you don't know, you're better off keeping it shorter.

Glad you could understand what I was saying because you answered it perfectly. So we can figure that in some cases it was a mistake but in others it wasn't.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

The difference between Silverado vs Sierra rebadging and say . . . Camaro vs Firebird is volume. In a bad year GM sold 465 000 Silverado's and 168 000 Sierras. There were almost as many Sierras sold as the entire Saturn brand. They can spread the cost of changing the interior out much easier. When volume shrinks, it gets harder and so diferentiation gets reduced and/or it gets more expensive to do each one. Thats what makes the G5/Cobalt pair pointless but Silverado/Sierra sucessful

Not to mention the fact that GMC is GM's most profitable brand because of that.

[Conflict]

Originally Posted by CamaroHutch

7 American dollars is worth more than 7 Canadian. Many Americans work for 7 or less.... or else we would have no fast food or pizza joints....

wow I didnt know you made less than 7 dollars for minimum wage in some parts of the US, that sucks, I make 8.25 for minimum wage...

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Conflict

wow I didnt know you made less than 7 dollars for minimum wage in some parts of the US, that sucks, I make 8.25 for minimum wage...

Probably your states minimum.

[Conflict]

Originally Posted by irpq11

Probably your states minimum.

it is, and its awesome

[AngryAmish]

$70-80 is is on scale with the rest of the industry. the problem is GM and the other domestics have been in this game for a long time. so realistically, they are going to pay alot more retirees then the foreign companies that build here now. Those will be in just as much trouble 40 years down the road that GM is in now.

Solve the retiree problem, save the company. Simple.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by SoonerCamaro

was watching fox news just now

That was your first mistake...I'm not saying there's any 'good' station to watch, but Fox? Good lord....

Originally Posted by SoonerCamaro

UAW that build gm cars make 150 dollars an hour with benefits and everything!!!

That's FALSE...no room for error. The highest estimates (also misleading), have wages, benefits, AND retiree benefits (hence the misleading part) have the price at ~$75/hr. I bet you've also heard of these evil 6-digit yearly pay...Guess what? It's called senior employees plus overtime, and it's not a new concept. It turns out that factories like to pay less people more, than more people less...they'll keep one guy on for lots of overtime hours, and send a few others home for the night...don't ask me why...just realize that this is not common practice, and all UAW workers aren't making six-digits.

Originally Posted by SoonerCamaro

Most of these people just have high school degrees!

Also false, and what does it matter? Am I better than my neighbor because I went to college? Please. MOST UAW workers went to some sort of a trade school to learn certain applied skills. You may be surprised to learn that, but it's true.

Originally Posted by SoonerCamaro

GM got themselves into all this mess with all this,

GM, through the mid 1900s to the 80s was making a healthy profit and living the high life. As employees, the UAW bargained for higher wages and benefits to reflect that time of prosperity. Unfortunately, they kept those benefits and wages well into times of loss...So yes, GM did get into this situation. However, don't think they were foolish to do it in the firstplace. They were doing well when the UAW got what they HAD.(more on "had" later)

Originally Posted by SoonerCamaro

I would rather make some money than no money...sorry for ranting just venting about these huge companys with their rediculous spending.

Would you? Surely...it's true. But how would you feel if your employer said "we're going to cut your pay 50% because we can. Deal with it, and have a nice day."

Anyway; my comment about "had". Negotiated and ratified in 2007, the UAW agreed on a plan to transfer the entire health-care burden off of GM, and onto their own shoulders. This was called VEBA and it was supposed to take effect in 2010. This may have been delayed or changed slightly what with the current government loan situation. But in any event, it stands to save GM billions of dollars a year.
Next; in that same contract, GM and the UAW agreed to cut pay for new employees from $35 and hour to about $14. Okay? That's more than half. Benefits were reduced, to my knowledge...and they bought out tens of thousands of workers. While at first it seems like they are throwing away millions to get rid of these people, it's actually a good way to replace close-to-retirement workers with lower-paid, entry-level workers.
Finally, the actual pay + benefits, as per GM, of UAW employees is somewhere around $35/hr. NOT 70-something. That higher number is including retiree costs, which is misleading because you need to understand something first: GM has employed tens of millions of employees in this country for 100 years. Toyota, Honda, etc...have barely been here for 30, and don't even have fraction as many employees. That burden is nobody's fault. It's simply a factor of time, and scale.

You might think I'm pro union after all that. I'd like to clarify that I'm not; I simply understand SOME (most definitely not all) of the complexities and misnomers surrounding this issue. The cold-hard fact is that General Motors and the UAW have actually made great progress in the direction that most people want to see them go.