Camaro team's response to concern about Transmission Output Shaft Failure

[Coldpants]

Congrats MWT18 did u decide to sue or settle. If its just about the money settle, but if its about changing corporate behavior I would sue. GM can ignore a BBB decision when it come to future claims. However if you win a lawsuit that would set precedent which GM would be forced to take into consideration in future cases.

[justa25thTA]

Bravo

[mwt18]

Originally Posted by Coldpants

Congrats MWT18 did u decide to sue or settle. If its just about the money settle, but if its about changing corporate behavior I would sue. GM can ignore a BBB decision when it come to future claims. However if you win a lawsuit that would set precedent which GM would be forced to take into consideration in future cases.

I'm not going to sue. It's just not in my nature. And, I don't think I'd be able to handle being called Stella Liebeck by PQ on a daily basis..
However, I've managed to generate a lot of commotion by being so public about all this. I've gotten numerous PMs from all kinds of guys with connections to the GM big dogs. From what I understand, John Fitzpatrick and Al Oppenheimer were not aware these claims were being denied. My hope is that the TSB will get updated to replace all broken trannys below VIN ~25,000. But we'll just have to wait and see if that actually happens.

[Ltdodge]

Originally Posted by mwt18

I'm not going to sue. It's just not in my nature. And, I don't think I'd be able to handle being called Stella Liebeck by PQ on a daily basis..
However, I've managed to generate a lot of commotion by being so public about all this. I've gotten numerous PMs from all kinds of guys with connections to the GM big dogs. From what I understand, John Fitzpatrick and Al Oppenheimer were not aware these claims were being denied. My hope is that the TSB will get updated to replace all broken trannys below VIN ~25,000. But we'll just have to wait and see if that actually happens.

that would be great! I wouldnt sue either, just reimburse you for your tranny fix.

we should ask the moderators (Gtahavt) to follow up with him so he wont get harrased by others...

[2010 L99]

Originally Posted by Milk 1027

Dude,
You modded your car.
You're outputshaft broke because of the added stress. It's commonly known that the output shaft is a weak spot. Why spend all that money modding it, and not upgrade it?
Worst of all why are you asking for GM to replace or fix it? I can tell you right now, it's not going to happen.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

I'm sorry this happened and is happening. but you don't stand a chance.

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Get towed to the dealership with a supercharger, slicks and skinnies and there is no gray area. There is also no warranty.

We have a member that feels he should be covered by warranty and he is doing what he thinks best. He is carefully investigating the cause of the failure and I respect his efforts. I don't think he is right, but that is just one man's opinion.

Show me thee factory warranty from ANY automobile manufacturer that covers the drive line when the owner has boosted the horsepower. When you show me a copy of that warranty I'll jump on the bash GM bandwagon. Until then, I think GM is handling this issue well.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

In my very humble opinion, you are wrong and warranty is void, considering all the modifications you've done.

But whatever. It's your ride, you handle it how you see fit.

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

Again. I would love to See GM fix it for you... I just don't see it happening. Nor do I think they are obligated to.

Originally Posted by PQ

I don't see what's so hard to understand. If I were GM I'd be laughing my ass off behind the scenes. Seriously.

If you modify it, the warranty is void.
Ok, Mattlock.

We'll see.

You keep digging in the papers. I'll go with common sense. Let's see who's right in the end.

Originally Posted by mwt18

Thanks! It was a hell of a hassle, but I think the right decision was made.

The trans has already been replaced at my expense by an independent shop.
At this point I have the option to either accept or reject the decision of the BBB.
Should I accept it, GM is obligated to reimburse me for the parts and labor (~$3500). By acceptance of the decision, I also waive my right to sue.
If I reject the decision, I have the right to sue GM for the parts and labor AND all other associated costs, e.g. punitive damages, cost of metallurgical testing, court and lawyer fees, etc... (~$ 25,000).

Well, well, well. If this is really true, and the BBB decided in your favor, and GM is really obligated to abide by their decision then kudos to you. I believe this is the first I've read on these forums where someone really fought GM with the Magnuson Moss Act and won without engaging a bunch of high-priced lawyers. Perhaps this result, if true (not saying it's not but I'm skeptical about everything I read on the Internet but if it is I hope to shake your hand someday), will begin to soften some of the "pay-to-play" rhetoric. Frankly, I'm surprised not more of the MMA advocates besides Russell James aren't in here with a standing ovation. Again, a smart, snappy salute to you.

P.S. Perhaps you could start a thread something like "How I Fought For My Warranty Rights And Won" thread for others to use as a guide. I doubt it would be a sticky as it probably should since some of the moderators think modifications automatically void a powertrain warranty but one never knows...

[Dans2SS]

this is a pretty big thread so maybe I missed it. I thought "the vin list" was more of a theory and not something that really existed within GM. Do they really have a list of known vins that they feel are impacted?

[2010 L99]

Originally Posted by Dans2SS

this is a pretty big thread so maybe I missed it. I thought "the vin list" was more of a theory and not something that really existed within GM. Do they really have a list of known vins that they feel are impacted?

GM's response below.

Originally Posted by mwt18

Had my BBB arbitration hearing yesterday. Here's a summary of the information I requested followed by the response from the GM rep:

Question:
1: Can you please tell me, was my vehicle built before the transmission issue was identified and the hold was issued?
GM's response: You have to be careful about what you read on the internet. There is a lot of false information. But, yes, your car was built on 6/18/09.

2. Can you please inform me what the transmission problem was and how it was resolved?
GM's response: Refer to safecar.gov and you will notice that there is not a recall pertaining to the transmission.

3. Was the VIN list of affected cars ever released? If not, why? Was my VIN on this ‘list’?
GM's response: GM does have a list of affected VINs. The list was never released because it was not deemed necessary. Letters were sent to all involved. Your VIN was not on this list.


4. Did GM contact those involved?
GM's response: We sent letters to all those with affected cars. If you didn't receive a letter, then your car was not on the list.


5. If there was a known defect, why did GM deny my warranty claim?
GM's response: Again, your VIN was not on the list of affected cars.

6. Do you think the failure of my transmission may be caused by the same defect that led to the other early 2010 manual Camaro SS manual transmission failures?
GM's response: No, your VIN was not on the list.

The GM rep said all this under oath.

[Dans2SS]

Thanks 2010 L99. I'd guess lots of ppl didn't get the letter if a poll was done.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by 2010 L99

Well, well, well. If this is really true, and the BBB decided in your favor, and GM is really obligated to abide by their decision then kudos to you. I believe this is the first I've read on these forums where someone really fought GM with the Magnuson Moss Act and won without engaging a bunch of high-priced lawyers. Perhaps this result, if true (not saying it's not but I'm skeptical about everything I read on the Internet but if it is I hope to shake your hand someday), will begin to soften some of the "pay-to-play" rhetoric. Frankly, I'm surprised not more of the MMA advocates besides Russell James aren't in here with a standing ovation. Again, a smart, snappy salute to you.

P.S. Perhaps you could start a thread something like "How I Fought For My Warranty Rights And Won" thread for others to use as a guide. I doubt it would be a sticky as it probably should since some of the moderators think modifications automatically void a powertrain warranty but one never knows...

I can't even begin to express to you how much self control it takes to respond to this. I don't like the insinuation that we suppress this discussion... the fact that I reopened this thread shows we have no desire to hide this story or what MWT went through...

He won his case fair and square. Good for him.. I'm certainly surprised he won but I would never blame him for trying. 2500 is nothing to sneeze at.

However. the thought that you can severely modify your car AND expect GM to cover that same car under warranty is .... immature. The only reason he won this case was due to the output shaft problem on early Vins that he was able to show his car was part of, or at least could have been part of.

Without the output shaft problem, I'm sure MWT would agree, he had no case against GM.

So is the BBB process worth it... absolutely. I wish I had been more educated on this process when my Motor in my Mazda took a dump under warranty... but with out proof of oil changes. Mazda denied my claim... Long story... Had I read this I would have certainly handled it differently. Assuming Mazda is a member of the BBB...

So educating people on the process is a good thing. Using this example to set precedence that a blown car should be repaired under warranty is not.

[PQ]

I spoke in PMs to mwt18 and this type of thing hits home. We agreed to disagree and left it at that. I initiated the PMs and said some things that I later appologized for in agreeing to disagree. It's personal for me as I'm the 'GM' on the bad side of replacing clients product even when I don't have to, just to keep them as clients. They take advantage of it.

All of this BBB talk is funny to me. They call me all the time wanting me to become a member and talk about all the great benefits to me as a business. I have always told them that they have nothing to offer me. Of course they try and convince me that people look at the BBB to tell them where to go shop or what services to use. .............. .

I polled my clients just for GP and exactly ZERO of the 50 or so I asked said they had called or checked the BBB for ANYTHING in the passed year. Only a small handful had ever called them or checked them in their lifetime. I always saw the BBB as being ANTI-BUSINESS. This case here confirms it for me. (Not accounting for the subject of the ruling) If I were GM in this case, I'd tell the BBB to go fly a kite.

My only thing, as a business owner, is that the power adding mods gave that part no chance of lasting and every chance to fail. Even the cars that are effected won't all break in the cars life. Just MIGHT break. So the opportunity for that part to last was taken away from GM.

In our business we have a product that breaks down over time and has to be replaced. Sometimes we will get a run of product that is sub-standard making it break down a little faster. We have a disclaimer to all of our client that if they alter or service our product then it's not covered if it breaks down or fails prematurely. So when we get the bad product we might have 80% of them last becasue the customer is careful with it per chance. But when it's altered there is NO chance of it lasting. The way we solve this (or at least set up to solve it) is to basically say, 'You alter it in any way, it's not covered in any way'.

If I were GM, I'd change my wording. I'd fight the MMA tooth and nail where this is concerned.

mwt18 felt he got a sub-par product and had a failure after he modded. Felt he was entitled to a re-embursement as a result. The wording allows for a loophole in the warranty info. The BBB is anti-business. It would cost GM more to fight it than to pay. I have no problem with mwt18 trying his best and succeeding. He sees it one way. I see it another. We approach it from different angles. But for some to claim that those of us here who see the spirit of the rule are somehow 'tools' then you are missing the point. If you owned a business you'd know what I meant. Especially in this economy.

I have principles and values. I am a man of conviction. When I had a lifter problem I sent my car to Vengeance no questions asked. Didn't even TRY to go to the dealer. And the L99 lifters are a known issue as well. But I took any chance GM had of my lifter never failing away form them when I put the blower on my car.

If it sounds like I'm criticizing mwt18, I'm not. Again, we approach it from two opposite sides. I believe one way, he believes another.

I TRULY am glad he won his case. But I hope GM finds a way to win the battles with organizations like the BBB. To me the BBB is just another confirmation that success in this country is looked down upon.

I got to looking around google and the net and it's EASY to see that the BBB is anti-business. So could someone please tell me why in the world I'd want to be a member?

Oh, and you guys who laugh at or criticize those of us who believe in the 'Pay to Play' motto need to think about what you're saying. There's a difference between being a 'Tool' and being a man of principle.

[JusticePete]

I have read through all the posts relating to the BBB decision. If I were on the panel I would have ruled differently as I see a direct cause and effect to a super charger and driveline failures. They saw it differently. The BBB made a decision that is good for mwt18 and bad for consumers overall. If GM has to cover modified vehicle under warranty, they will. They will just charge more for the vehicles they sell as will all MFGS. You can't budget for warranty when it is an open account. Some one has to pay for ruling like this and in the end it will be the consumer.

[Dr Jkel]

I'll ask the stupid question that no one has. So follow me for a minute GM had a range of Tranny's that had bad shafts that broke on modded and no-modded cars, this is not disputed.

They identified the area of concern and made changes, Correct? Correct, and since they made the changes to the shaft the " I broke my tranny" threads have almost disappeared and there are ALOT of modded cars past the original "range" of cars that were supposedly affected.

Seems like they FIXED the issue, cause people are still modding, still racing, still mashing the pedals and this issue has almost become non-existent.

Does it stand to reason that there WAS something really wrong on a small range of vehicles? ANd if there WAS a REAL issue on a certain range of vehicles say 25000 or less cause some have auto's, wouldn't it be easier just to check the serial numbers of LS3 cars to see if 1, they are in the VIN Range, 2. Tranny Model Range and see if there is an issue with those select vehicles and at least let the owner know they have a suspect range tranny.

I may be crzy but out of xxx amount of trannies I would presume that there is not A WHOLE bunch of affected cars and if one is affected fix it before it breaks. Or am I being too STUPID.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Dr Jkel

I'll ask the stupid question that no one has. So follow me for a minute GM had a range of Tranny's that had bad shafts that broke on modded and no-modded cars, this is not disputed.

They identified the area of concern and made changes, Correct? Correct, and since they made the changes to the shaft the " I broke my tranny" threads have almost disappeared and there are ALOT of modded cars past the original "range" of cars that were supposedly affected.

Seems like they FIXED the issue, cause people are still modding, still racing, still mashing the pedals and this issue has almost become non-existent.

Does it stand to reason that there WAS something really wrong on a small range of vehicles? ANd if there WAS a REAL issue on a certain range of vehicles say 25000 or less cause some have auto's, wouldn't it be easier just to check the serial numbers of LS3 cars to see if 1, they are in the VIN Range, 2. Tranny Model Range and see if there is an issue with those select vehicles and at least let the owner know they have a suspect range tranny.

I may be crzy but out of xxx amount of trannies I would presume that there is not A WHOLE bunch of affected cars and if one is affected fix it before it breaks. Or am I being too STUPID.

No sir you are anything but.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Dr Jkel

I'll ask the stupid question that no one has. So follow me for a minute GM had a range of Tranny's that had bad shafts that broke on modded and no-modded cars, this is not disputed.

They identified the area of concern and made changes, Correct? Correct, and since they made the changes to the shaft the " I broke my tranny" threads have almost disappeared and there are ALOT of modded cars past the original "range" of cars that were supposedly affected.

Seems like they FIXED the issue, cause people are still modding, still racing, still mashing the pedals and this issue has almost become non-existent.

Does it stand to reason that there WAS something really wrong on a small range of vehicles? ANd if there WAS a REAL issue on a certain range of vehicles say 25000 or less cause some have auto's, wouldn't it be easier just to check the serial numbers of LS3 cars to see if 1, they are in the VIN Range, 2. Tranny Model Range and see if there is an issue with those select vehicles and at least let the owner know they have a suspect range tranny.

I may be crzy but out of xxx amount of trannies I would presume that there is not A WHOLE bunch of affected cars and if one is affected fix it before it breaks. Or am I being too STUPID.

All correct. And supposedly there was a letter sent to the owners of suspected vehicles. Point is that even the effected cars may never have a problem. There's no way to know. But modifying the car takes the odds out of GMs favor.