Need advice regarding rear suspension problem

[caverman]

Not sure if this will help but I'll at least throw it out there as something to check.

In my case the back of the cradle became out of alignment. Probably because I was prying down on it in order to get he insert under the alignment pin. I was having a hard time getting the bolts for the rear cradle to go in. I was able to get one side started but not the other.

With the bolts removed I took a flashlight and looked up where the bolt would go to the alightment pin. I could see all of the whole where bolt would go but just a little bit of the outer edge of the alignment pin was covered up by the cradle. It was just barely off to the right. That alignment pin needs to be dead on center to where you can see the bolt hole 100% and the outer edge of the alignment pin as well.

If it's off even a little have them take a pry bar and move the whole cradle in the direction it needs to be in order to see that pin completely. In my case I pushed it to the right and with just a little pressue the cradle clunked into place. I had to do it seperaly for both sides. In other words, once I got the drivers side to pop into place I still had to push over the passenger side in order for it to become perfectly aligned.

I'm going to say that it's probably not the bushings that are causing your issue. Even though I prefer the design I ended up with better I didn't have the issues you are describing when I had the ES inserts installed.

My guess is that they got the cradle out of alignment and don't have it set properly. My scare if that is the case is that they might have cross threaded the bolts into the alignment pin because the only way to get it in would be at a slight angle.

[Synner]

I agree if the pins are out of alignment when they check the torque specs it will "feel" like they have it bolted down properly. You may see a certain number but it doesn't mean everything is good. It would also cause that sliding and thudding feeling you're getting because the torque on the bolt isn't enough to stop the metal on metal sliding caused by a 4k pound behemoth coming to a stop where the two adjoining pieces of metal aren't fitting together right.

[parietta]

Thanks everyone. There is definitely something wrong here and it seems to be getting worse. I agree that the subframe must somehow not be attached properly because I am starting to feel the effects at other times too. Going over bumps or road patches moves the rear end too. I am going to try to take it back in again today to have them look at the subframe bolt alignments.

[parietta]

Hallelujah - I think that this is finally fixed!!! Unfortunately I can't tell you specifically what corrected the problem. The technician removed all 4 subframe bolts and reinstalled them after making sure the bushing cap ferrules were aligned and seated properly. He did think that one of them (left rear) might have been slightly misaligned but I'm not sure if that would have caused the kind of suspension movement I was exeriencing. In addition I had him check all of the other suspension bolts again and sure enough the driver side toe link outter knuckle bolt was not as tight as it should have been. I'm embarrassed to say that I installed the new trailing arms and toe links so that would have been my error. Couldn't get my torque wrench on it due to the close quarters but still thought that I had at least tightened to 100 ft/lbs. with my breaker bar. Oh well, the good news is that the car feels absolutely solid now which means that the ES bushings are working well and more importantly I don't have to waste money to replace them with something else. I want to thank all of you who responded for your help and advice. It was very useful in terms helping to trace this issue down. It's great to be part of the Camaro community.

[Synner]

Glad you got it all worked out. Tomorrow I'm going to try installing my full bush replacements and all my help backed out last minute. Fingers crossed I don't destroy it and then can't get it back together.

[caverman]

Glad it seems to be fixed. I'm betting the cradle was out of alignment like the issue I had. By removing all the bolts he probably moved it over into place especially if you mentioned that to him.

As for the ES bushings.....well, you know where I stand on them because I'm sure you read through my thread. So I'll say that replacing them wouldn't necessarily be a waste of money. Just my opinion though.

I sure would be curious to see if the guys that installed your inserts were able to get the front ones flush.

[gahammerle]

Originally Posted by Synner

Glad you got it all worked out. Tomorrow I'm going to try installing my full bush replacements and all my help backed out last minute. Fingers crossed I don't destroy it and then can't get it back together.

Wish I could make it. It's not that difficult. I installed my inserts 4th of July weekend on jackstands. Took about 2 hours. Last night, helped a friend install his inserts. He already had his up on jackstands for other work, and it only took us an hour on his.

I was worried I wouldn't be able to do it by myself, but it really isn't tough. Having an air chisel with the rounded pointy tip makes getting the washers off a piece of cake.

[Synner]

No worries. It might be more difficult solo as I may drop the exhaust and driveshaft to give me more room since I need to attack it with a reciprocating saw. I'll need a bit more room to work but I still plan on trying to do it without dropping the whole cradle. And no air chisel but I'm bringing a torch since a bunch of ppl said heat makes it a ton easier. I'll cook those buggers out if I have to. I figure between the sawing and wanting to get the diff bushings at the same time I'll be at least 6 hours. At least I'll have a lift.

[caverman]

Use the two hammer method. It works. About 4 good blows and they come off.

If you lived by me I would help. Hell, I've done the cradle inserts basically 3 times now. Haven't done a full bushing yet so I would be intrested in doing one.

[caverman]

Originally Posted by gahammerle

Wish I could make it. It's not that difficult. I installed my inserts 4th of July weekend on jackstands. Took about 2 hours. Last night, helped a friend install his inserts. He already had his up on jackstands for other work, and it only took us an hour on his.

Sorry....trying not to jack this thread but instrested since I had issues with my ES inserts.

Out of curiosity, what brand of inserts did you do on yours and your friends? Were they the BMR/ES style? If so, were you able to get the front top inserts in flush with the OEM bushing?

[gahammerle]

Originally Posted by caverman

Sorry....trying not to jack this thread but instrested since I had issues with my ES inserts.

Out of curiosity, what brand of inserts did you do on yours and your friends? Were they the BMR/ES style? If so, were you able to get the front top inserts in flush with the OEM bushing?

Mine are Pedders. Friend's are BMR. We didn't have a problem getting the BMR flush. They also seemed to be stiffer than the ES ones from your pics. I assumed BMR & ES were exactly the same, but maybe there are some differences.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by parietta

Hallelujah - I think that this is finally fixed!!! Unfortunately I can't tell you specifically what corrected the problem. The technician removed all 4 subframe bolts and reinstalled them after making sure the bushing cap ferrules were aligned and seated properly. He did think that one of them (left rear) might have been slightly misaligned but I'm not sure if that would have caused the kind of suspension movement I was exeriencing. In addition I had him check all of the other suspension bolts again and sure enough the driver side toe link outter knuckle bolt was not as tight as it should have been. I'm embarrassed to say that I installed the new trailing arms and toe links so that would have been my error. Couldn't get my torque wrench on it due to the close quarters but still thought that I had at least tightened to 100 ft/lbs. with my breaker bar. Oh well, the good news is that the car feels absolutely solid now which means that the ES bushings are working well and more importantly I don't have to waste money to replace them with something else. I want to thank all of you who responded for your help and advice. It was very useful in terms helping to trace this issue down. It's great to be part of the Camaro community.

Good news. I had a hunch we could get this fixed without any new parts.

There are times when it is best to forget the torque wrench. Using a torque wrench on head bolts where you have open access and range of movement is a necessity. On hard to reach suspension bolts or flat on your back getting a good read on the TQ wrench can be next to impossible. Adding extensions and joints makes the reading less accurate too. Suspension bolts are a good place for the German spec. Gudentight. We are dealing with Grade 8 or higher bolts passing through steel ferules. Gudentight works well for this.