My thoughts on all of ZL1 and GT500 discussions going on.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by GREY03COBRA

Only thing Ford isn't winning is the sales race..... 5.0 faster all the way around than a SS. What Camaro competes with the Boss again? GT500? C'mon man... Ford created this segment... CHEVY has been playing copycat for the entire time.. You guys should be thanking Ford for the Mustang and GT500 or you wouldn't even have a Camaro let alone ZL1. I remember when I got my 03 Cobra all the Camaro guys were complaining that "Ford had to use a supercharger" blah blah blah... Guess if you can't beat them, join them...

....WOW! Only thing Ford isn't winning is the sales race???? There is so much wrong with your post I can't comment any further..., because all I wanna do is just ....

Originally Posted by GREY03COBRA

Old enough that I can read... Please don't try and tell me that the "Unsafe at any speed" Corvair started this segment... What is this segment of cars called again?? PONY cars.. yeah that's it.. Why is it called that? Well maybe by the fact that Ford sold over 600,000 Mustangs in one year. The Corvair was not even close to those numbers. Then Chevy and Dodge wanted a piece of that pie.

Here's a quote from Edmunds.com about the history of the Camaro. "Chevrolet's Camaro (and its sister "F-car," the Pontiac Firebird) was hardly an original notion — it was a blatant GM rip-off of the Ford Mustang. But just because it's stolen doesn't mean it's a bad idea."

Mustang II, while not a bright moment in Mustang history did outsell the Camaro easily the first year it was out. 385,000 Mustangs to 151,000 Camaros. So, Ford was laughing all the way to the bank on that one. Also how can you bag on the Mustang II when the Camaro was so bad in 2002 that they stopped making it..

How about 2005 Ford creates a "retro" Mustang and they sell very well.
Jump to 2010 what does Chevy do???? Copy the Mustang again with a "retro" Camaro...

Another example. 2003 supercharged Cobra.. Spanks every Camaro ever made with the exception of the original ZL1... Camaro owners cry foul about "Fords supercharged engine"... What? The new ZL1 has a supercharged motor??

I completely agree with you on one thing and that it is a great time to be a pony car fan. Just give credit where credit is due.

WOW again...the little horsey rider reads to gets all his experience from Edmunds for historical and annecdotal information .........enjoy your little horsey....., and keep on reading, some day you might have some real experience to talk from....

[BaylorCamaro]

Guys, lets not turn this thread into yet another argument war. I posted this to give my thoughts not to argue.

[2012ZL1]

Originally Posted by tooslow

So, where do you put all the people who own both a Mustang and a Camaro in your opinion? Only semi-intelligent and lacking "proof" of their convictions?

:troll:

^This guy has nothing better to do than stir up trouble. Not an enthusiast..so don't waste your time answering his stupid posts.

[Pappa Joe]

Originally Posted by HDDAN

It is the 1960's all over again. Hurray!! I love what is happening, but beware the nanny-nanny-booboos that will start complaining about it. I watched it happen with sporting motorcycles. They tried to ban them! They don't mind having $200,000.00, 200 MPH Mercedeses around, they object to having $55,000.00 180 MPH cars around that a lot of people can actually afford to own. I can already see the episode of Sixty Minutes with the "Killer Car" segment. That is what they tried to do to the Japanese motorcycle manufacturers in the 1980's.

Funny thing is, todays 600s are faster than the 80s 1100s. I got into motorcycling in 1981.

[rmyers]

I don't think the Z06 was put on notice at all. It's not just about horsepower.

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by 2012ZL1

:troll:

^This guy has nothing better to do than stir up trouble. Not an enthusiast..so don't waste your time answering his stupid posts.

Enthusiast...yes.
Brand loyal...no.
ZL1 fan...yep.
GT500 fan...yep.
Troll..not hardly.
Speak my mind...you know it.
Guy...not very observant are you?

[2012ZL1]

Try a positive post once in a while. It gets a little negative sometimes.
I am observant.
If you are not being a troll, then stop with the apparent trollisnness.

I may have been off the mark with the "stupid posts" remark. Now that I read my own post seems a little harsh, more like "negative posts" instead of stupid posts.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Life is a learning process. The more we learn, the more we evolve.

[chd1]

chevy is cool period

[tooslow]

Originally Posted by 2012ZL1

Try a positive post once in a while. It gets a little negative sometimes.
I am observant.
If you are not being a troll, then stop with the apparent trollisnness.

I may have been off the mark with the "stupid posts" remark. Now that I read my own post seems a little harsh, more like "negative posts" instead of stupid posts.

No problem. If my posts come off as negative, I'm sorry, but I'm honestly not doing it to try and stir anything. I guess I would like to see more people thinking about what they are typing versus throwing stuff out there. In this case, the poster made some all-encompassing statement lumping anyone who drives a Mustang into a group labeled unintelligent, naive and/or unfriendly. Funny thing is, I can go over to a Mopar site or a Ford site and find people who will the exact same thing about Camaro drivers.

I think it's fine to be proud of what you drive, for whatever reason you have for buying it, but trying to make yourself look better than someone else by poo-pooing their choice or making it seem like you somehow made a superior choice in your decision is immature. Sorry, but I don't consider calling someone out for making a derogatory statement about a group of people, based on the car they chose, trolling.

For the record, I don't currently own a Mustang, Camaro or Challenger, so I'm not taking any sides. I know there are a few moderators on here whosee that fact alone as a "red flag" issue with me participating on this site, but as long as I am not breaking the rules, I figure I'll be okay.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by BaylorCamaro

Guys, lets not turn this thread into yet another argument war. I posted this to give my thoughts not to argue.

Your intent is honorable.

But from my view this is just like the other threads....

No rules had been broken.. So we've left it alone.....

But if you'd like to close it, let me know.

[Blue Menace]

I just wonder if any of you have this same passion for your wives/husbands, family, job, etc. Good debate is passionate. Bad debate is debasing and ignorant. Could we, for a sec, try kindness with our knowledge?

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by Blue Menace

I just wonder if any of you have this same passion for your wives/husbands, family, job, etc. Good debate is passionate. Bad debate is debasing and ignorant. Could we, for a sec, try kindness with our knowledge?

I agree with your ending line. There is a lot of type A personality throughout the car hobby. Type A personality is the same no matter what field you play on, whether at home, work, or at play. I think many of us are as passionate about everything we do in our lives as we are out about our cars. However, we must strive to interact with each other in a positive way that binds us together, rather than to tear us apart. Evolution is a process. <Caveat> However, intentional, premeditated confrontation must be met by the pugilistic hand of correction. At such time civility must be layed aside. Those who choose the course of ill judgement and poor behavior will shurely meet that fate here. I would like to end with a memorable quote... "Can't we all just get along"

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by GREY03COBRA

Old enough that I can read... Please don't try and tell me that the "Unsafe at any speed" Corvair started this segment... What is this segment of cars called again?? PONY cars.. yeah that's it.. Why is it called that? Well maybe by the fact that Ford sold over 600,000 Mustangs in one year. The Corvair was not even close to those numbers. Then Chevy and Dodge wanted a piece of that pie.

Here's a quote from Edmunds.com about the history of the Camaro. "Chevrolet's Camaro (and its sister "F-car," the Pontiac Firebird) was hardly an original notion — it was a blatant GM rip-off of the Ford Mustang. But just because it's stolen doesn't mean it's a bad idea."

Mustang II, while not a bright moment in Mustang history did outsell the Camaro easily the first year it was out. 385,000 Mustangs to 151,000 Camaros. So, Ford was laughing all the way to the bank on that one. Also how can you bag on the Mustang II when the Camaro was so bad in 2002 that they stopped making it..

How about 2005 Ford creates a "retro" Mustang and they sell very well.
Jump to 2010 what does Chevy do???? Copy the Mustang again with a "retro" Camaro...

Another example. 2003 supercharged Cobra.. Spanks every Camaro ever made with the exception of the original ZL1... Camaro owners cry foul about "Fords supercharged engine"... What? The new ZL1 has a supercharged motor??

I completely agree with you on one thing and that it is a great time to be a pony car fan. Just give credit where credit is due.

Not even sure where to start on this one....

You may have read about the 60s- but reading about it and living it are two different things.

In 1960, Plymouth introduced the Valiant - an economy car. Ford introduced the Falcon - also an economy car. Chevrolet introduced the Corvair - also an economy car - the difference was that the Corvair was a blast to drive. It offered European Styling with superior handling to anything else that the domestics were building (other than Corvette) The fly in the ointment? You needed to watch tire pressure. 18 in the front - 32 in the back - if you put 32 in the front- -well - not good! Golden Bear talks about the Futura as a response to the Monza - I'll let you read that part.

Pony obviously comes from the Mustang - but it's a term used loosely. The official industry term for this segment has been "Regular Sport" - some would say "muscle" -- some would say "Pony" -- and you are correct in that the Camaro was another entry in the competitive market in late 1966 -- there was a difference, however -- the Camaro was an all-new platform which gave the car better handling - but also a better -- and quieter - ride. One still needs to look at Firebird and Corvette sales during that period (if, in fact, the argument is 'sales'...)

As to the Mustang II - Chevy approached the performance market in three different ways - Camaro, the Monza family, and Corvette.

The 4th gen Camaro (and Firebird) wasn't 'bad' - in fact you may recall that it had segment leading straight line performance and handling superior to Mustang. Further, there was the Corvette. (remember - the Mustang is Ford's performance car - GM has two cars in answer to the Mustang)

The new Camaro was never designed as "Retro" - the team felt that it was not appropriate to make a 'retro' Camaro -- so a modern Camaro was designed -- with some design cues from Camaros past. (In fact now and then I get a complaints that we should have done a 'retro' Camaro rather than a modern Camaro -- ) You may find the book "Camaro - the Return of an American Legend" by Larry Edsall a very interesting read.