Open Letter from Al Oppenhieser to the Camaro Nation and Ford.

[vrunner]

Alot has been said. I have owned mustangs, 300 Z, Trans ams, Grand Prixs and I must say pony car wise the Trans Am/Camaro was and is (Camaro) the better car. I currently own a G8 GXP and a Camaro SS. I bought the Pontiac because it was the last of its kind and I am a die hard Pontiac fan. I bought the Camaro because I loved the look and style. Having driven the Camaro for the past 5 months I must say its one of the best built sports cars I have ever owned. My neighbor who is a big Ford fan boy (look closely at my pic below and you can see his blue/white GT in his driveway), owns nothing but fords and currently has a GT drove both the Camaro and G8. He has told me numerous times the Camaro is much more comfortable and refined than the GT. The Camaro will remain king until Ford starts over from scratch on the Mustang... I don't see that happening with the new CAFE regulations just around the corner. Ford is stuck with what they got, a car that can go somewhat fast in a straight line.

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

You misunderstand me. If the 5th Gen Camaro is the most badass car you have owned, . I am not dissatisfied with the Camaro at all, I am a car enthusiast. Just like I am sure you don't like anyone lying to you or blowing smoke up your bum, a Chief Engineer making such absolute statements when, like I said, Ford has not made known the GT500's true abilities yet...is simply not too smart. Put it this way, say the GT500 craps all ovet Al's ZL1, what the F is he gonna tell us then? Wouldn't it have been better had he taken a more "political" damage control reply? Then later on, at best, he can say "I told you guys!". Then at worst, he doesn't have to back-pedal. By taking the line he took, if his ZL1 eats GT500 dust, will you ever trust anything that comes outta his mouth?

In order for him to make such a bold statement, you don't think he has any intel on what Ford has been doing on the Ring? Do you honestly think this is a statement made by someone that has no idea what the other car is capable of?

If that is the case and this backfires on him, I'd agree with you completely. I'm just not so sure that's the case. While I'm sure they'll concede straightline performance to the other guy, they seem awfully confident in pointing out that the ZL1 will be a better all around track performer.

Time will tell the truth.

[Treefrog]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

You misunderstand me. If the 5th Gen Camaro is the most badass car you have owned, . I am not dissatisfied with the Camaro at all, I am a car enthusiast. Just like I am sure you don't like anyone lying to you or blowing smoke up your bum, a Chief Engineer making such absolute statements when, like I said, Ford has not made known the GT500's true abilities yet...is simply not too smart. Put it this way, say the GT500 craps all ovet Al's ZL1, what the F is he gonna tell us then? Wouldn't it have been better had he taken a more "political" damage control reply? Then later on, at best, he can say "I told you guys!". Then at worst, he doesn't have to back-pedal. By taking the line he took, if his ZL1 eats GT500 dust, will you ever trust anything that comes outta his mouth?

I guess we started from two different places when we read the comments.. I read it as a seller with full confidence in his product.. If he is wrong? Well the gt deserves a tip of the hat.. Will that make the ZL1 less of a car? perhaps in some minds but it will still be a great car.. I find it difficult to understand a car enthusiast thinking less. What a time we live in!

[Z4me]

I'm just wondering how much that new mustang is gonna cost! TBH I can't see myself driving the speeds either car is capable of. I know that's not the point of these recent threads. But I have to say competition is a win win for all of us. Let's hope cafe limits will not jepordize future possibilities for muscle cars that we all want and need.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by Shurenuff

In order for him to make such a bold statement, you don't think he has any intel on what Ford has been doing on the Ring? Do you honestly think this is a statement made by someone that has no idea what the other car is capable of?

If that is the case and this backfires on him, I'd agree with you completely. I'm just not so sure that's the case. While I'm sure they'll concede straightline performance to the other guy, they seem awfully confident in pointing out that the ZL1 will be a better all around track performer.

Time will tell the truth.

I agree.

Al stated. "The days of “no replacement for displacement,” are over, and it’s not enough to be fast in a straight line. With the Camaro ZL1, we set out to deliver integrated performance, and be equally good at acceleration, braking, grip, and turning."

Those comments make me think that Chevrolet believes that the GT500 will be faster than the ZL1 in a straight line, but that the ZL1 will deliver better integrated performance, including lateral Gs, cornering, and overall track performance.

If the 2013 GT500 performs better at the track than the 2013 ZL1 does, then Chevrolet executives will have major egg on their faces.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by den318

You don't think the Camaro needs any upgrades/update?
How about a little more Power or better suspension so it can beat the 5.0?
How about an update/refresh front end or rear?
How about a lower gearing options or lose a couple pounds?
How about an updated dashboard or interior?
2010,2011,2012 pretty much the same car
Look what Ford did from 2010 to 2013 Mustang.
I am leaning toward a Camaro, but i want an updated one. I want one that can beat the 5.0 on the drag or track. Is that too much to ask?

2010 Camaro kills the 2010 Mustang. What did Ford do....5.0 right back at you. What did Chevy do? Nothing, because Camaro is out selling the Mustang 5.0. Ford is updating the 2013 either further.
2012 ZL1 announced. What did Ford do? I don't think i need to answer that one. I am sure the ZL1 will be the same in 2013 if it is out selling the Gt500.

My point to all this is. It's great to be in 1st place Chevy but it doesn't mean you can relax. You can still make the Camaro better instead of letting Ford steal all your thunder.

Where to start with this one.......

First of all - let's take a walk back to a couple of years ago.

The housing market imploded - taking the ability to raise money on the open market impossible. We can debate the politics until the cows come home.


what IS true:

>Thank God for the Ford Family that a few execs at Ford had an inkling of what was to come - because prior to the melt-down, Ford mortgaged EVERYTHING - including the staplers on the desks -- and then put the money in the bank - so that they'd have a cash cushion -- had they not done that, they'd have followed GM and Chrysler into bankruptcy. That's simply a fact.

The reality is that there is simply not enough capital for Ford or GM or Chrysler to update all of their cars and trucks every two years.......like it or not, that's a fact.

Thus - one needs to get beyond the "Sport" Segment and look at the larger picture - the automotive business is one of the most competitive in the world - and manufacturers from all over the world wanted into the U.S. Market simply because it was, until recently, the largest in the world. Coupled with the fact that we do not put tarriffs on any passenger cars coming into the U.S. (something that isn't necessarily true in the rest of the world....) In order to compete, every manufacturer must be constantly improving their products.

Your statement that the Camaro team is 'relaxing' or 'doing nothing' could not be further from the truth.

Those outside of the walls of GM (and Ford and Chrysler) simply cannot know evrerything that's being worked on --

As to updates on Camaro -- we replaced the V6 engine - made hundreds of changes beneath the skin of the car (the SS has a new suspension package) - we spent substantial money on the ZL1 - we are also improving the Corvette -- plus I don't think it's a secret that there's a new Corvette coming. On top of that, we are the leader in flex fuel, we are the leader in fuel cell technology (which is another energy source down the road) and we launched the Volt - a car that is unique in that it's an electric car that can be driven coast to coast without stopping every 50 miles to recharge. We're the leader in two-mode hybrids - and we started at the top of the food chain (so to speak) by developing hybrid technology for busses - then trucks - then SUVs rather than at the bottom of the food chain (with subcompacts) The Cruze gets hybrid fuel economy without the hybrid or the hybrid premium......we still lead many segments in top fuel economy - but it's also true that companies like Subaru and Honda can claim fuel economy superiority as a company - because they don't build trucks and commercial vehicles.......

Now - you may say "I don't CARE about Hybrids or Fuel Cells or Electric cars" - and that certainly is your perogative - however, WE have to worry about it because we (all manufacturers) have a 56.6 mpg target as CAFE in the next 10 years......and that's staggering. But - we don't have a choice -

So - I hope you'll understand that capital allocation is crucial if GM and Ford and Chrysler are to stay in business. Ford is now down to two brands that they need to continually develop -- GM is down to four - but that's still a lot of "mouths" to feed.........

So - sorry - you are correct in that we didn't do a mid-cycle on the Camaro in 2012 -- that doesn't mean we're 'relaxing' or that we're 'ignoring' the Camaro - far from it....the team is working LITERALLY around the clock......
and...., as I said, you don't know all that we're working on - and further, if you were running GM and could see what those of us within the organization see - I think you'd also understand why GM didn't do a Mid-cycle.

Do we deserve your business? No - we don't - we have to earn it and we understand that. But please - I'd ask you not to make statements that we're 'relaxing' or that we don't take this business seriously - because that's simply not true.

[Z Boss]

This discusssion is priceless but just as in previous generations, the only way to settle this "mustink" gt500 vs. Camaro ZL1 is to race them heads up on a couple of track \ track settings with the best drivers Chevy and Ford can muster. My vote is Tony Stewart for the ZL1. After all, he is a Chevy guy and is feeling very confident these days. I'm a decent driver but after spending $60K on this badass car, I couldn't push this car to it's limit on a track - too much to lose. Now if I let my crazy brother drive it.........

[HDRDTD]

And of course, who's to say that GM isn't aleady planning on a Camaro upgrade that will trump the GT500's 650 horsepower?

All they'ed have to do is replace the 1900 SC with a 2300 or so. Simple enough.

[JJPlace1]

I love you guys .... wait I almost spilled my beer ... I am good !!

[Z4me]

Originally Posted by HDRDTD

And of course, who's to say that GM isn't aleady planning on a Camaro upgrade that will trump the GT500's 650 horsepower?

All they'ed have to do is replace the 1900 SC with a 2300 or so. Simple enough.

You never know till the fat lady sings!

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by Z Boss

This discusssion is priceless but just as in previous generations, the only way to settle this "mustink" gt500 vs. Camaro ZL1 is to race them heads up on a couple of track \ track settings with the best drivers Chevy and Ford can muster. My vote is Tony Stewart for the ZL1. After all, he is a Chevy guy and is feeling very confident these days. I'm a decent driver but after spending $60K on this badass car, I couldn't push this car to it's limit on a track - too much to lose. Now if I let my crazy brother drive it.........

There could be irrefutable proof that one is "better" than the other and people would still debate the result or would start debating the testing mechanisms. If that failed, they'd go after the math or formulas or stats in the tests. If that failed, they would go after the driver. Then the day of the week. Then the weather. Then the actual day at that moment on that track. Then it's the SRA vs. IRS. Then it's the 6.2 vs. 5.8. Then it's who looks better. Then it's which one is more comfortable. It never ends.

There is really no proving anything is truly better than anything else in this category.

Even if the GT500 came out and "beat" the ZL1 in every single category, people would still defend its reign to the grave and dismiss all other claims. It's just how this stuff goes.

I mean... Look at a certain mag's review of GT vs SS.. SS won in pretty much every category.. Who won the overall? GT... For no other reason than because they said so.

We make fun of them for their horse and buggy style suspension. They make fun of our center cam engines. We make fun of them for small engines. They make fun of our HP:L They're light. We're fat. We look nice. They look like poo.

These threads are fun to read though.

[Black5thgen]

Originally Posted by HDRDTD

And of course, who's to say that GM isn't aleady planning on a Camaro upgrade that will trump the GT500's 650 horsepower?

All they'ed have to do is replace the 1900 SC with a 2300 or so. Simple enough.

8 hypereutectic pistons and powdered rods.

[Deki]

Originally Posted by kbui

Actually, the roll cage is only inside the occupants' compartment and DO NOT stiffen up the front or rear structures, hence DO NOT have an effect on the shock towers. If you look at the deformation modes with and without the roll cage, the mode that shows the twisting of the front structure (front shock towers) these would not change. The modes that would change are the lower bending modes of the whole vehicle about the occupants' compartment. For an already stiff structure, the vehicle would probably be faster without the added mass.

You honestly think that chassis flex only occurs on front and rear structures? A properly mounted roll cage DOES IN FACT stiffen up the whole structure.

Originally Posted by vrunner

The Camaro will remain king until Ford starts over from scratch on the Mustang... I don't see that happening with the new CAFE regulations just around the corner. Ford is stuck with what they got, a car that can go somewhat fast in a straight line and around a track.

Fixed it.

And as for your neighbor saying the Chevy is more refined than the Mustang, that may be the case where you live, but I spent quite a bit of wheel time between SS and the GT, and on the streets here, they drove and felt the same. I'm sure if you live in a pot hole riddled area, or where there is lot of gaps between asphalt slabs on the freeway, the IRS will absorb the bumps better than the IRS.

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

There could be irrefutable proof that one is "better" than the other and people would still debate the result or would start debating the testing mechanisms. If that failed, they'd go after the math or formulas or stats in the tests. If that failed, they would go after the driver. Then the day of the week. Then the weather. Then the actual day at that moment on that track. Then it's the SRA vs. IRS. Then it's the 6.2 vs. 5.8. Then it's who looks better. Then it's which one is more comfortable. It never ends.

There is really no proving anything is truly better than anything else in this category.

Even if the GT500 came out and "beat" the ZL1 in every single category, people would still defend its reign to the grave and dismiss all other claims. It's just how this stuff goes.

I mean... Look at a certain mag's review of GT vs SS.. SS won in pretty much every category.. Who won the overall? GT... For no other reason than because they said so.

We make fun of them for their horse and buggy style suspension. They make fun of our center cam engines. We make fun of them for small engines. They make fun of our HP:L

These threads are fun to read though.