One Thing the Camaro has over the gt500

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by BigDan

I know what you mean. I was sliding all over the 2012 I drove but Ford fixed the Recaro's for 2013 and added alcantara inserts to make them not slippery.

Those should be MUCH nicer than the previous ones! Thanks for the pic!

Originally Posted by tooslow

In all honesty, I truly believe that once the dust settles the 2013 GT500 is going to come out ahead in all the key areas of performance. 0-60, 60-0, top speed, quarter mile and skidpad. In the end, I think the ZL1 will be left with only it's 'Ring run to hang its hat on.

Maybe not, but time will tell.

I don't at all. 0-60...MAYBE...depends if they can put it down. Quarter, most likely. 60-0...not likely...also dependent on tires, top speed (imho, who cares?), and skidpad...maybe...but unlikely, imo.

A car is the sum of its parts...but the other way around, and I believe THAT is the area the ZL1 will shine: the refinement of the performance.

The more I look at the '13 GT500 improvements, the less impressed I become. It's one big band-aid...with that in mind, I find myself continually shocked at how many "Camaro enthusiasts" have become infatuated with it so quickly without much to back up the affection.

But of course...we must wait and see right? No sense in guessing before it's out?

[SRT8Tech]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

It's one big band-aid...

I have been trying to figure out how to say the same thing and you just summed it all up right there.

[The IOM Ninja]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I don't at all. 0-60...MAYBE...depends if they can put it down. Quarter, most likely. 60-0...not likely...also dependent on tires, top speed (imho, who cares?), and skidpad...maybe...but unlikely, imo.

A car is the sum of its parts...but the other way around, and I believe THAT is the area the ZL1 will shin: the refinement of the performance.

The more I look at the '13 GT500 improvements, the less impressed I become. It's one big band-aid...

But of course...we must wait and see right? No sense in guessing before it's out?

With all due respect though, you're a fanboy.... It's obviously in your DNA to think that no one other than Chevy can make a well performing Pony Car. You're obviously entitled to your opinion though.

Take this information in to consideration as well, the 2011 GT500 pulls 1.00G on the Skidpad. As per GM's specs so does the ZL1. So to be fair short of GM lying about the true specs, the GT500 won't have to do much other than hooking up to beat the ZL1.... It does amaze me that they haven't at least announced they are putting wider tires on the GT500 though...

[SRT8Tech]

One thing I dont get is where the hell did all the extra weight come from in the ZL1?? I mean damn....4200 pounds!!! Did they get some engineer from Dodge to make the car? What have you guys been seeing on just the fully loaded SS in the weight department? Shit man, my Challenger is 4200 pounds and its a bigger car.

[Deki]

Originally Posted by SRT8Tech

One thing I dont get is where the hell did all the extra weight come from in the ZL1?? I mean damn....4200 pounds!!! Did they get some engineer from Dodge to make the car? What have you guys been seeing on just the fully loaded SS in the weight department? Shit man, my Challenger is 4200 pounds and its a bigger car.

Blower and piping, extra cooling, bigger brakes, heavier duty suspension pieces and extra material used to stiffen the chassis...I'd guess that covers most of it.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by SRT8Tech

One thing I dont get is where the hell did all the extra weight come from in the ZL1?? I mean damn....4200 pounds!!! Did they get some engineer from Dodge to make the car? What have you guys been seeing on just the fully loaded SS in the weight department? Shit man, my Challenger is 4200 pounds and its a bigger car.

4120...Round down if you're gonna round.

And as mentioned above, most of the weight is in the form of drivetrain improvements. But that is only a number on paper...what you need to realize is that weight was removed from up high...added (where it needed to be) down LOW, (which both translate to a lower center of gravity, improving handling, and increased acceleration)...and when they were done, they ended up with a Corvette-rivaling 51/49 weight balance, even better than the SS. They also removed some pounds from the very sensitive rolling portions of the car, like the wheels and tires...this will have a big impact on responsiveness, making the car "feel" lighter than it is.

It may have gained ~275 lbs over an SS, but it all equates to a completely bullet-proof package, that'll just keep on going. Considering handling has drastically been improved, I think that's an worthy trade off!

Originally Posted by SRT8Tech

I have been trying to figure out how to say the same thing and you just summed it all up right there.

It really is. The more I think about it, the clearer this seems to be nothing more than an act of desperation to get the Mustang back into the spotlight the Camaro has stolen (and kept stolen!). The only semi-effective thing they can do at this point (with a new model just a couple years out) is push that engine to its limits.

Originally Posted by The IOM Ninja

With all due respect though, you're a fanboy.... It's obviously in your DNA to think that no one other than Chevy can make a well performing Pony Car. You're obviously entitled to your opinion though.

I was hoping you'd try to pull that card......

Don't tell me what you think I am. I am an enthusiast. The term "fanboy" is something puked up by (excuse this next bit) self-absorbed "CAR enthusiasts" to try and invalidate the opinion of another with no real foundation to do so...simply to pave the way for their own biased opinions. Double-standards much? I am a Camaro enthusiast, and absolutely proud. To make matters even more "tricky"....we're on a website created for people like me. Shocker???

However, I do NOT think that only Chevy can make a well-performing sports coupe. Ford has been doing it since the Camaro's return, BMW can do it, Mercedes, Dodge...sorta. I just said other car manufacturers can make nice cars........Would you like me to write that up and sign it in blood?

Now, onto this GT500 nonsense...I'm only ever going to spend the time writing this once. I don't expect it'll change any minds, nor do I want it to. But I've been biting my tongue, trying to be civil and "polite"...but you don't get to come into my house and say my walls look ugly without a little rebuttal...

------

We know NOTHING about this improved GT500 other than its hp rating and a top-speed estimate (both useless specs alone, by the way, or is that point only valid for the ZL1?). It is immensely frustrating to me to read that a few people (nobody specific), formerly supposed Camaro enthusiasts, are so quick and ready to jump ship because Ford is churning the marketing machine again.

It's even more frustrating to see these same people attempt to tear down the ZL1 (which hasn't even had its tires on the road, yet) on a Camaro site...all to pacify themselves that the GT500 is truly a God-send...

I'm sure it can be faster in a straight line. But I'm doubtful it will be the better car by any fair measure. In reality, though, it's the media's underdog right now. So I'll expect the same "it can do no harm" treatment the other models have received in the recent past...the reviews ought to be interesting ()

After considering a LOT of factors...from both camps...over many years...The ZL1 appears to be a complete package. Built for the track from the beginning, with everything engineered to work together. It has just the right amount of everything coming together to create this wonderfully balanced and meticulously refined entry-level supercar.

The '13 GT500 is shaping up to be no more impressive than an '11 that a Mustang enthusiast did some modifications to. Nearly everything essential to compete is optional, and unless they take some drastic steps...that archaic structure is not going to support these new power levels very well at all - making for a rough 'package'.

It's one thing to compare the two on paper...Ford's real good at that...but put 'em both on the same track, with the same group of driver/journalists, and I'm as confident as Al Oppenhieser that it'll surprise a lot of people. In a few measures the ZL1 may not be drastically faster...but at the end of the day, there's no doubt in my mind it will be the better CAR.

/end rant.

EDIT: It would, I'm sure, appear that I've taken some comments personally...and to a degree I have. But I can assure you I'm not fuming at my computer screen right now. In fact, I have a bit of a smirk on my face - I enjoy being able to talk about these cars...and I'm reveling in the paradigm that we're arguing over two nearly 600 hp +/- cars that could induce a neck sprain just by turning a corner. How spoiled we all are...

The reason I posted that boils down to that I'm not seeing the ZL1 getting a fair shake around this site, like it should. And if nobody else will stand up for it with as much apparent fervor as you Mustang-fans support your flagship model...I will.

[SRT8Tech]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

4120...Round down if you're gonna round.

Yeah, I think I just had that 4200 pound thing stuck in my head from my cruise ship of a car. Actually I think my Challenger is around 4170.

[AZ MSCL]

"Don't tell me what you think I am. I am an enthusiast. The term "fanboy" is something puked up by (excuse this next bit) self-absorbed "CAR enthusiasts" to try and invalidate the opinion of another with no real foundation to do so...simply to pave the way for their own biased opinions. Double-standards much? I am a Camaro enthusiast, and absolutely proud. To make matters even more "tricky"....we're on a website created for people like me. Shocker???"

Well said!!!!

[The IOM Ninja]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I was hoping you'd try to pull that card......;)

Don't tell me what you think I am. I am an enthusiast. The term "fanboy" is something puked up by (excuse this next bit) self-absorbed "CAR enthusiasts" to try and invalidate the opinion of another with no real foundation to do so...simply to pave the way for their own biased opinions. Double-standards much? I am a Camaro enthusiast, and absolutely proud. To make matters even more "tricky"....we're on a website created for people like me. Shocker???

However, I do NOT think that only Chevy can make a well-performing sports coupe. Ford has been doing it since the Camaro's return, BMW can do it, Mercedes, Dodge...sorta. I just said other car manufacturers can make nice cars....:confused0068:....Would you like me to write that up and sign it in blood?

Now, onto this GT500 nonsense...I'm only ever going to spend the time writing this once. I don't expect it'll change any minds, nor do I want it to. But I've been biting my tongue, trying to be civil and "polite"...but you don't get to come into my house and say my walls look ugly without a little rebuttal...

------

We know NOTHING about this improved GT500 other than its hp rating and a top-speed estimate (both useless specs alone, by the way, or is that point only valid for the ZL1?). It is immensely frustrating to me to read that a few people (nobody specific), formerly supposed Camaro enthusiasts, are so quick and ready to jump ship because Ford is churning the marketing machine again.

It's even more frustrating to see these same people attempt to tear down the ZL1 (which hasn't even had its tires on the road, yet) on a Camaro site...all to pacify themselves that the GT500 is truly a God-send...

I'm sure it can be faster in a straight line. But I'm doubtful it will be the better car by any fair measure. In reality, though, it's the media's underdog right now. So I'll expect the same "it can do no harm" treatment the other models have received in the recent past...the reviews ought to be interesting (:rolleyes:)

After considering a LOT of factors...from both camps...over many years...The ZL1 appears to be a complete package. Built for the track from the beginning, with everything engineered to work together. It has just the right amount of everything coming together to create this wonderfully balanced and meticulously refined entry-level supercar.

The '13 GT500 is shaping up to be no more impressive than an '11 that a Mustang enthusiast did some modifications to. Nearly everything essential to compete is optional, and unless they take some drastic steps...that archaic structure is not going to support these new power levels very well at all - making for a rough 'package'.

It's one thing to compare the two on paper...Ford's real good at that...but put 'em both on the same track, with the same group of driver/journalists, and I'm as confident as Al Oppenhieser that it'll surprise a lot of people. In a few measures the ZL1 may not be drastically faster...but at the end of the day, there's no doubt in my mind it will be the better CAR.

/end rant.

EDIT: It would, I'm sure, appear that I've taken some comments personally...and to a degree I have. But I can assure you I'm not fuming at my computer screen right now. In fact, I have a bit of a smirk on my face - I enjoy being able to talk about these cars...and I'm reveling in the paradigm that we're arguing over two nearly 600 hp +/- cars that could induce a neck sprain just by turning a corner. How spoiled we all are...:laugh:

The reason I posted that boils down to that I'm not seeing the ZL1 getting a fair shake around this site, like it should. And if nobody else will stand up for it with as much apparent fervor as you Mustang-fans support your flagship model...I will. ;)

Neither the 2013 GT500 or the 2012 ZL1 have been tested by independent testers. Until that happens neither car in inherently better than the other "except" on paper. The Manual ZL1 does 0-60 in around 4.5 seconds, realistically 4.0 is with a rollout and we all know this as per the Dealer Guide that was posted a few weeks back, now that being said for a 580 horsepower car with Performance Track Management, Launch Control and a whole bunch of other nannies it's not all that impressive. The GT500 should be around the same time at 650 Horsepower still not that impressive.

-----------------------------------------------

Now 200 MPH, yes it is more of a bragging right but at the same time, what is it that is preventing the ZL1 from reaching that top speed? It can't be aerodynamics since, as according to what you said earlier, the ZL1 (which isn't out yet) is more aerodynamic than the 2013 GT500 (which also isn't out yet), is it the horsepower difference? Very possibly. Is it the weight difference? Also a possibility. Surely if the ZL1 were capable of 200 MPH the ring time would be a few seconds faster perhaps bringing it into the 7:30-7:40 range, doesn't seem like it would be all that different.

-----------------------------------------------

As for the optional stuff, subtract the Glass Roof and Navigation from the GT500 and get the SVTTP on the GT500 and you're looking at about the same price as a base ZL1. Now that is assuming the price, like the 4.6 to the 5.0, doesn't change all that much. It's still not standard but you can get the car for around the same price. This is all speculation though so to be fair it's obviously not necessarily true.

-----------------------------------------------

I would gladly buy a ZL1 if GM would actually make them. I'm completely floored at the fact that they are, as per what has been discussed and dealer allocations, limiting 2012 ZL1 production. This of course is assuming they don't decide to just open the flood gates on it. That to me is absolutely insane. People buy generally on a whim based on specs a lot of the time. What would sound more impressive to you if you were a buyer? A 650 Horsepower ZL1 or a 580 Horsepower GT500?

Likely the former... Now I switched those numbers as a good example of consumer stupidity. If the GT500 outperforms the Camaro in 3/4 aspects consumers don't care, it's the same way if the ZL1 outperforms the GT500. Horsepower sells, but then again thanks to Transformers so does the Camaro's styling. It's largely based off of who advertises the best...

Neither car is out, therefore you cannot make an unbiased decision without seeing both of the cars perform. Otherwise you are just basing it off of brand loyalty. This goes for those stupid f$&%'s over at the Mustang forums who irritate me 100% more than some of the stuff I read here.

For the record I love the ZL1, SS, 5.0 and GT500 as well as the 392. They all have their upsides and downsides but it is a great time to be a fan of American Muscle Car's.

[camslambam]

Originally Posted by The IOM Ninja

I'm sorry but I don't take it seriously because:

1: You're driving in a straight line
2. The only true skill requried is being able to launch the car and being able to accelerate past the competition.
3. NASCAR is simply driving a car around an oval and hoping someone will crash and burn (at least for me, someone crashing and dying seems to be the only reason to watch).

I will not ignore the fact that it requires practice, practice and more practice to do either of these "sports." However I guess I'll never really understand the infatuation Americans have with driving in a Straight line or around in an oval. Takes all kinds though so I'll respect you guys on that degree, cause you found a way to make something mundane exciting for yourselves. I mean that in the best possible way too, text can always be misinterpreted.


You also seem to misunderstand the laziness of people. Everyone expects a handout and that's the main reason I don't donate to something that hasn't personally affected me as a person or one of my family members or support welfare. Stereotypes exist for a reason, I don't personally say Eh all the time but I know a handful of people that do...

1. lol
2. Okay mr 15 second 1/4 mile
3. Nascar is an aggressive sport. If it's so easy as you claim please, by all means, become a nascar driver. Look what happens to the "super awesome" f1 drivers that cross over (ie montoya). They get owned because it's aggressive racing unlike F1 where they are so scared of touching one another that the same team always wins.
4. Just because you have a slow car that can't go fast in a straight line doesn't mean you have to dog on others who like it. Making a car run 8s is much harder than running around the nurburgring in <8mins.

[PitchBlack]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The IOM Ninja
With all due respect though, you're a fanboy.... It's obviously in your DNA to think that no one other than Chevy can make a well performing Pony Car. You're obviously entitled to your opinion though.
I was hoping you'd try to pull that card......

Originally Posted by Dragoneye
Don't tell me what you think I am. I am an enthusiast. The term "fanboy" is something puked up by (excuse this next bit) self-absorbed "CAR enthusiasts" to try and invalidate the opinion of another with no real foundation to do so...simply to pave the way for their own biased opinions. Double-standards much? I am a Camaro enthusiast, and absolutely proud. To make matters even more "tricky"....we're on a website created for people like me. Shocker???

Well said!

[ffrcobra_65]

ahhhhhh a healthly debate is always good for a car forum. I love it!

[The IOM Ninja]

Originally Posted by camslambam

1. lol
2. Okay mr 15 second 1/4 mile
3. Nascar is an aggressive sport. If it's so easy as you claim please, by all means, become a nascar driver. Look what happens to the "super awesome" f1 drivers that cross over (ie montoya). They get owned because it's aggressive racing unlike F1 where they are so scared of touching one another that the same team always wins.
4. Just because you have a slow car that can't go fast in a straight line doesn't mean you have to dog on others who like it. Making a car run 8s is much harder than running around the nurburgring in <8mins.

First: I'm not spending my money on driving fast in a straight line at a drag strip. I won't lie about being able to understand the infatuation Americans have with going in a straight line or only turning left but that's obviously not everyone. You clearly know why, I don't and I'll never understand....

Second: Yeah it does take more to get a Car to go fast in a straight line than around a corner, but money isn't everything.

Third: You'll have to explain to me why people like NASCAR because the only reason I see is the comical value of someone running around on fire....

[RedRooster]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The more I look at the '13 GT500 improvements, the less impressed I become. It's one big band-aid...with that in mind, I find myself continually shocked at how many "Camaro enthusiasts" have become infatuated with it so quickly without much to back up the affection.

I more or less agree, it is a band-aid because there's an all new Mustang coming out for MY2015. It doesn't make sense to completely reengineer a platform that you're just going to be sh*t-canning in a couple years anyway.